Heel/Toe questions

[Stack]

Originally Posted by steveh

Makes sense to me to be in the "right" gear for any speed, even if you're just passing through to a lower speed, and lower gear.

On the surface, yes, it makes sense... but if you think about it... you're not going to find yourself in a situation where you'll need to stay in the intermediate gear (since by definition, we're talking about any braking zone where you see a downshift of more than one gear.) If you find the need to continue to accelerate, then you're started your braking zone too early, or you've over-slowed the car.

The need to downshift more than one gear at a time doesn't seem to come up that often (end of a front straight, usually). I drop to 2nd through Oak Tree, but I've already gone 5-4 through turn 10 and 4-3 through 11. On the back straight into Hog Pen, it's 5-4 just before 14 and 4-3 for the hard right. On the front straight, I usually 5-4 at the beginning of the braking zone, then 4-3 just before turn 1.

I'd venture an educated guess that you could eliminate much of that shifting with different lines and/or more mechanical grip and/or a shorter final drive (4:10 vs 3:73) allowing you to have more pull with 3rd gear. Oak tree, IMHO, should be a faster turn than T14, so if you take T14 in 3rd, you should be able to take Oak Tree in 3rd as well. Only time I use 2nd at Oak Tree is if there's a much slower car in front of me that forces me to over-slow, thus NEEDing 2nd gear to get a good run out of the turn, but even thats not necessary if I'm not too close going IN to Oak Tree and can drive my line and carry more speed than him/her through it.... but that can be (and probably has been) discussed in the VIR or driving tips forum.

Purely a matter of personal taste, but I'd hate to 4-2 and find I'm too fast for 2 (boom! or spin!).

Individual habits may have been influenced by where you learned, too. I took Skippy when they used the Formula Fords -- 4 speeds, no synchros -- so you kind of had to 4-3-2 just to get it in gear.

Forget about Skippy! Drive YOUR car, not their's! I'm of the opinion that 2nd gear should never have to be used on a road course... especially here in the SE where I can't think of any instance 2nd gear is really needed (with the exception maybe of the top section on Patriot course.) EDIT: Assuming most all of us have 5 or more speeds to work with

[steveh]

All excellent points. Sometimes, old habits just die hard.

Oak Tree is a challenge in my car, as 3rd is just a little off the turbo; 2nd is too low, but I can pull harder and get a little more rotation around the tree. I agree that it should be a 3rd gear turn -- I suspect that's one place where I can find some time (there are many ). On 14, there's a little downhill to help get the revs up into the turbo a little quicker, so I can do it in 3rd.

Overall, in the TT a couple weeks ago, same car, same style tires (HP street), I picked up almost 7 seconds over last February (good instructor! ). I'm sure I have a long way to go, and managing gears through turns is just the start.

[Stack]

Originally Posted by steveh

Overall, in the TT a couple weeks ago, same car, same style tires (HP street), I picked up almost 7 seconds over last February (good instructor! ). I'm sure I have a long way to go, and managing gears through turns is just the start.

Damn... I just put 2 & 2 together and got 4!

You're my dual-run group guy aren't you!

[steveh]

Yes, and I could not have had a better time!

Still grinning weeks later, even in NE snow and ice.

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by Stack

Seriously?

OK, fine... assuming one is skilled enough with footwork and feel as to be able to now modulate not only the brakes, but also the clutch and transmission, then go for it. Just don't do it when you're around me please.

~85 hours and I've done it like that since day 1, and I'll continue to do it

don't like it? get your point-by arm ready... your "fears" are just as overblown as my "advantages"



this is one of those things thats really more about comfort than anything else... I'm comfortable doing it my way. You can do it your way, and we can all drink beer and tell lies in the paddock after the day is done

[Stack]

Originally Posted by kbrew8991

~85 hours and I've done it like that since day 1, and I'll continue to do it

I've been pickin' my nose since day one too... don't make it right!

don't like it? get your point-by arm ready... your "fears" are just as overblown as my "advantages"

That may be true, but it's something a data-logger could tell us pretty easily.

this is one of those things thats really more about comfort than anything else... I'm comfortable doing it my way. You can do it your way, and we can all drink beer and tell lies in the paddock after the day is done

This is where, as usual, I must disagree. If you NEED the extra braking because something is wrong with your brakes or you've run out of pad, or simply chose the wrong compound to where you can't reach that threshold level of braking, sure, it should be in your bag of tricks I suppose.

But to suggest it as normal (even if it is for you) just doesn't make sense. Even if my fears of breaking traction are overblown, whats not is the added wear and tear on your drivetrain, clutch, and engine. So if we agree that my fears and your advantage cancel each other out, then why not err on the side of saving equipment?

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by Stack

So if we agree that my fears and your advantage cancel each other out, then why not err on the side of saving equipment?

comfort

if you were my car owner/full sponsor/etc, we'd have to talk about it I guess

(and its not really as bad as you think on the mechanical side)

[Skeen]

I can't believe you guys are arguing over it this much. I select every gear on the way down, basically just because muscle memory does it. It's the same motion, same blip on the throttle, etc. Do whatever the hell you want if it works. There's no "right" way to drive.

Don't get me wrong, there are many techniques out there that are bad, but in this case both methods accomplish the same thing when done properly.

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by Skeen

I can't believe you guys are arguing over it this much. I select every gear on the way down, basically just because muscle memory does it. It's the same motion, same blip on the throttle, etc. Do whatever the hell you want if it works. There's no "right" way to drive.

Don't get me wrong, there are many techniques out there that are bad, but in this case both methods accomplish the same thing when done properly.

and thats why I'm saying go with what is comfortable to you

[Warpedcow]

Sometimes the easiest way is the best way simply for the sake of consistency. For me, that means hitting every gear on the way down (5-4-3) in the longer braking zones. Of course I also have "cheater" ABS