PSM (et. al.): Yay or Nay?

[Lobo6]

Originally Posted by sbranda

The nice thing about spinning your a few times is that you have something else to talk about besides how slow (20 seconds slower than the same car?) you drove.

I agree that spinning is part of the learning curve. If I had not spun my car at AX a few times I would have not been calm the first time it happened to me on track. I've spun in the wet at Mosport and Lime Rock. And two spins in the dry at The Glen. Last summer the 90+ mph spin in the Bus Stop at the glen was a doozy. I also think getting your car loose at AX and reeling it back in has helped my learning curve on the track. How are you going to collect the car if you have never had any experience in doing so? That's why I would avoid the PASM stuff. Well, I possibly make an exception for the first couple of tracks days ever. Even with PASM, DSC, and all the stuff they have on cars now you can still loose it on track. Which begs the question, how do you learn? Find a safe atmosphere like AX and go out and find the limits, spin, get loose, do all that stuff where you won't hurt the car. It will make you a better track driver. I am sure all F1 drivers have driven cars in the past with none of the stuff available. Just my .02 worth.

[Conan]

Ok, I may or may not have remarked about my car's electronic stability management. Nissan calls it VDC for Vehicle Dynamic Control. I say it stands for Very Dumb Computer. It's nothing like what I've heard PSM described as. VDC is about as subtle as throwing an anchor out your window. It's incredibly intrusive. While there is a "VDC Off" switch, I found out the hard way that it really doesn't turn off VDC totally. There's two components: Fuel control (cuts power), and an EBD (electronic brake distribution) module. All the "VDC Off" switch turns off is the fuel control. So when I was at BIR and I was pushing hard around turns, the EBD would occasionally kick in. With the OEM brakes and street pads, I never really noticed it. But with the new Stop Tech kit and the race pads, it was horrible. The EBD would brake the outside front brake and it would feel like I just hit a pothole. I'm convinced it was hurting my laptimes.

So, what to do? Well, I did a little research and was VERY happy to find that the whole kit & kaboodle goes through a single fuse. So yesterday, after having installed my new adjustable a-arms (with the help of Branda and Rob ) I pulled the fuse and went out to see how it worked. In short, ALL electronic stability is deactivated -- VDC, TCS, AND ABS. I could go full lockup with all 4 tires. Not good for the street, obviously, but it will allow much better control on the track. I took John out with me and he seemed to think it felt better, as well.

Now, will someone go and check on Billy? I'm betting he fainted when he read that part about everything being deactivated and locking up all the tires

[Lobo6]

Sounds great. But I'll admit to liking the ABS only because you can still steer a bit, but I can live w/o it also. Otherwise take that junk out. Very Dumb Computer indeed.

This should be moved to the PSM thread though.

[Conan]

Originally Posted by Lobo6

This should be moved to the PSM thread though.

............Done.

[Darkworx]

Nay says I! but with 590BHP on tap, you had better pick your lines well, just like how Hans Solo said in the first Star Wars: "You have to calculate your course well, or you can end up in an astroid field or a planet you're not expecting.
PSM, I usually have that thing on when it is raining like crap, otherwise my faith is in my tires!
PSM is the ultimate "Look at me! I CAN DRIVE REALLY FAST WITH NO HANDS!!!" gimmick. I say TURN IT OFF and lets see HOW GOOD you REALLY ARE! "If you can't keep your car straight, get off the side-walk!"

[Darkworx]

"Warp 9, Wesley! And turn that damn PSM OFF!!!"

[Lobo6]

Originally Posted by Darkworx

"If you can't keep your car straight, get off the side-walk!"

LOL, this is killing me. Too much. Thanks. And now back to our serious thread before Stefen gets on my case.......

[jstecher]

This thread has been the most entertaining one so far beyong the Porsche/Ferrari battle royal earlier this year.

Now on to my feelings...yes Doctors Lobo and Stack that is right I am going to talk about my feelings.

I personally believe that PSM, VDC, XYZ or what ever you call it honestly makes you a worse driver than you could be when looking at the broader picture.

My whole life I drove cars that have minimal electronic brains (sort of like my own brain) and it has made me what I am today. I have always driven cars with no ABS, no traction control, and a lot of HP which taught me some humbling lessons but at the end of the day made me a better driver because I knew what it was like on the edge and slightly past it and knew I could bring it back. We use to quasi-AX back at my highschool a long time ago by blowing around different painted segments of the parking lot on the weekend. I learned how to threshold brake, and balance the car with the gas pedal during those years and oh yes I spun more then enough but I also got to 45 degrees more than enough and was able to pull it back.

Flash forward to now. My car is still pretty raw. It has no power steering, no power anything, a nasty rear weight bias and is thought to be one of the hardest Ferrari's to drive fast ever. The only thing it has is ABS which in itself isnt that great of a system on this car compared to others. However to me its really not that bad at all because I have driven other cars at the limit for so long that I have learned to work the car in the manner it likes. I know how to predict when I am going to get into a power slide and when the back end is going to step out under acceleration or braking and how to correct it. I learned it all from driving the previous set of cars beyond the limit in a safe environment. If I hadn't done that stuff before I would have got into a world of hurt with this car because I wouldnt have been able to handle it as it neared the limits.

So I guess my point is that the way I look at it is you are going to drive a car that is a bucking bronco at some point in time. Be it a street car, Radical, Porsche 944/968 race car, Skip Barber car, 250GTO, Conan's car with the fuse pulled, The Lobo 666 Mobile, etc. You are going to have to push that car at some point in time if you want to get good times and the nice little buzz that comes with it or get your money out of the racing school you are attending in some cases. By pushing it you are going to have to understand how to handle it if something does go wrong as there is no reset button. If not its a nice off the track excursion.

I think the PSM, VDC is great for every day driving in the rain, snow, etc and once you get to the point you are Schumi I bet you could do lap after lap after lap without PSM coming on, but the reason you are able to do that is because you spent YEARS learning how to handle and avoid getting into the area that the light comes on. It all goes back to feel.

To me you need to fall down a couple of times when you learn to walk to understand how physics work. If you put the kid in a big bubble and dont let them actually fall down they think they can do anything until the bubble bursts.

Just my 200000000000 cents

[kbrew8991]

the best place is to go to a track with nothing to hit or a safe autocross, turn the switch off.. and go practice

I woundn't recommend turning it off at EVERY track just yet till he can reliably catch the car, but you gotta start somewhere

[jstecher]

Originally Posted by kbrew8991

the best place is to go to a track with nothing to hit or a safe autocross, turn the switch off.. and go practice

I woundn't recommend turning it off at EVERY track just yet till he can reliably catch the car, but you gotta start somewhere

Agree with you Ken...Mid America seems like a perfect spot for me. I know I will be running with mine off.