Go Back   Trackpedia Discussion Forums > Track Days, AutoX and Racing > Driver Improvement

View Poll Results: What do you think of computer controlled driver assistance?
Best thing since google.com! Everyone should use it! 3 30.00%
Don't like it. I think it interferes with the experience. 5 50.00%
Depends (please post why you think so). 2 20.00%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 05-10-2006, 05:25 PM
Kompressor's Avatar
Kompressor Kompressor is offline
Yellow Group
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 319
Default

my two cents.

I vote no for it at least from my experience, it almost cost me my lowly 30,000 dollar mercedes. and it did cost me a differential and a transmission. maybe porsche is better but mercedes system is horrid. now ill tell you the where and the how.

let me start by saying the ESP system electronic stability program is designed with the ability to apply rear brakes at will, and to turn off the fuel to the engine, (this is what it does in the on position.)

(now turn it off with the dashboard switch), and it can no longer starve the engine of fuel but still has full access to the rear brakes to prevent any type of wheel spin.

I have since learned that there is a way to tottally disable it with a bunch of key commands and moving the key while the car is off, but that takes out BAS, ABS and ESP and the car runs in a mode called (dyno rig test) which is just fine by me I re-arm my system now when it rains for highway driving (for the abs) but in all other dry situations i stay in rig test mode.

now onto the why i hate it.

lets deal first with my shatterd pinion gear, and the loss of my second gear in the transmission, the failure of the differential happend while in second gear. thus thrashing second gear pretty bad, the tranny did fail a few months and a few 1000 miles later but it was hard to get into second gear from the day the diff blew.

now the theory behind the why the ESP system caused the differential to fail. mercedes ESP system is horribly intrusive and comes on at the slightest hint that any of the 4 wheels are spinning at different speeds. the primary engagement is when either one of the rear two wheels spin at different rpm's, now i used to drive the car with the system "off" on the dash, so the car still had rear brake access, you could pull off of a light, and shift quickly from first to second gear, which would cause a chirp in a normal car, in the mercedes it involves the rear brakes kicking in while youve got it flat on the floor and some nosediving because of it. now multiply that times every time your a little hard on a shift, and you have an idea how many times the rear tires were braked while under full throttle. now picture the drive train, 150hp comming out of the crank shaft, moving into the transmission, then into the drive shaft, then into the differential. then into the axle ot the rear wheels, only now the rear brakes are enganged. now imagine the differential is the weakest link, physics say the wheels still have to turn otherwise something has to break, so even with the rear brakes the rear wheels still spin, although the load on the engine from trying to move the car and the wheels that now have tons of force on them the net result is that the car nosedives and you loose about 2 seconds of acceleration per blink of the esp light on the dash.

long story short esp is braking the rear axle while the engine is supplying maximum horsepower it dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is a bad thing.


now we move out onto the track.

that first part the differential, and transmission only cost me 4500 dollars to fix, but now here comes the part where the system almost cost me the whole 30,000 dollar car.

at summit point main, in turn 1, and 2, I dive into turn 1 and turn in ive made it halfway into the turn im 90 degress to the front straight at this point and the car is set in the turn, just got out of balanced gas pedal, and start adding gas heading for the apex, with the goal being to get the car to start to slide a bit and help turn it for the apex, as tires make the most traction then. slip angles and that whole mess. now the rear steps out just where i want it, and the car points right for the apex, im new at it and maybe was giving it 95%, not quite at the limit for my line in the turn. then bam full rear brakes a nose dive followed by the rear of the car sliding out from under me by a foot or 2, (my instructor is screaming DON'T LIFT, DON'T LIFT)(to which i reply its the traction control!!)im coutersteering like mad the cars in basically a four wheel drift for about half a second then it hooks up just in time and i plow thru missing my apex by several feet but just thankful my car is still in once pieice. the tire wall isnt too far away and i had some good speed on.

long story short this system almost caused me to crash my car, its not smart enough to figure out when its needed and when its not. at least since i know how to hack my car now i can totally disable it. any car could benefit from a simple limited slip differential, and no dynamic stability control, which is really just dynamic put the car in an unusual attitude mode. I can see no benefit at all for the mercedes system. ABS sure, BAS sure, but ESP is a big fat NO!!

in most situations where ESP gets involved its already to late for a novice, and for a more experienced driver it takes away their control of the car. and still causes an accident, if I was at the limit id have been walking home.

rant over.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-10-2006, 07:34 PM
billy's Avatar
billy billy is offline
FIA rated bubble wrap!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rochester MN
Posts: 5,606
Send a message via AIM to billy Send a message via MSN to billy Send a message via Skype™ to billy
Default

I hear ya
But maybe it's just other systems are crap. Conan said the PSM on the Z was aweful, you're saying the Mercedes one is aweful. I'm seeing no intrusion at all, I'm seeing instructors driving the cars around with it on also and no problem. The way I look at it is this: My best lap at BIR is 2:04.8 or something. I know the car can do a 1:55 (see the telemetry) with Cups and Pagid pads and a very smooth driver. I reckon I can shave at least 5 seconds of my time just by getting braking right and turn in right. No driving at the limit, just become smoother, more consistent and grow another walnut to do 120+ through T1. Now, once I get under two minutes then maybe, it's time to turn it off but I know the problem I have right now isn't PSM coming on. It doesn't come on for me period. Other drivers with 996s say the same thing.

I reckon for me with 6 track days and a bit of karting, if I was sliding the car at the track then an instructor would probadly slap me and be right for doing it. John in the Ferrari 348 (a lighter, more powerful car but less modern) is 2 seconds quicker (2:02.x) at his best right now and I reckon it was all T1/T2 where he kills me because I lack a walnut.

So, I'm still leaving it on. Maybe after MAM but I reckon that I've a ways to go on smoothness before not being able to slide the car on the limit is the reason I'm slow...
__________________
1986 Porsche 944 sp1 track whore.
Daily driver: 2010 VW GTi
Wifes car: 2009 Ford flex sel awd
iRacing: AMD Phenom BE 970 + HD6870 (5740x1080)

Last edited by billy; 05-10-2006 at 07:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-10-2006, 07:54 PM
Kompressor's Avatar
Kompressor Kompressor is offline
Yellow Group
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 319
Default

yea what your describing is nothing like what i get from mercedes system, mercedes head is like getting beat in the head with a stick every few seconds, your litterally fighting the system every day and many times a day. seriously it comes on if you look at the gas pedal or a turn wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-10-2006, 09:45 PM
Lobo6's Avatar
Lobo6 Lobo6 is offline
Defender of the Porsche Faith
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MA
Posts: 3,022
Smile Kbrews Next Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kompressor
yea what your describing is nothing like what i get from mercedes system, mercedes head is like getting beat in the head with a stick every few seconds, your litterally fighting the system every day and many times a day. seriously it comes on if you look at the gas pedal or a turn wrong.
Mr. K, you have to realize that MB stopped manufacturing cars for people who wanted to track them decades ago, if ever actually. What is "beating you on the head" (good description) is what 99.999% of MB owners want. A safety net as they drive their high end cars around. All real road feedback is dialed out and all safety devices are set on "full stun". You my friend are just driving the wrong platform for track use. Sometimes you need to face the reality that your car is not the right fit for you. I'd sell it to Kbrew, he's graduating from college, probably has a major job lined up and might need the right "Yuppie Sports Car".
__________________
NER/PCA Member
BMWCCA Member
1993 RS America
2003 Mini Cooper S
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(C) 2006-2009 Trackpedia