Thunderbolt circuit discussion

[PAracer]

I believe a few of us have visited and driven the track at this point. What toughts, tips, ideas do we have to share?

First off. The track's food concessions are overpriced, and the quality isn't up to par. The $3.00 ice-cream sandwich is the best deal. VIR, the sister track, is much better.

The corner workers need to improve their skills. I'm sure this is just something that will take a bit of time since they truely are new to the job. Be aware that the guy on the back straight may be staring in awe at the cloud of dust that you are about to drive through

The track itself is great!

T1 is a fast right to an uphill short chute. T2 is another right over a crest (dare yourself to stay off the brake). T3 is yet another fast right. You will likely need to lift a bit to make the turn. This one leads onto the backstretch which features a hump in the middle. Most cars will get real light and possibly a bit of wheel spin for the more powerful ones.

The second half of the track runs a bit like the first half of VIR. There are a couple slow turns, but you will still see some good speed. This part of the track will spark some good depate regarding the proper/fastest line. There is truely more than one way to skin a cat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI4og-8bJMc

I can't wait to go back. Tune in to Speed this Sunday to watch the Grand Am race from this very track.

[steveh]

I attended the NASA event on August 5, and made the following notes posted on a couple other forums. These are seat-of-the-pants impressions, comparing some of the turns to other tracks, but without traqmate, timer or video. My car was a '92 E36 BMW with M3 suspension on street tires:

Note: the track was run for this event without the optional chicanes, so some of the later turn numbers may be a little off.

Turn 1 -- very fast, slightly increasing radius right-hander. The challenge was to not over-brake at the end of the long front straight, as you could carry a fair amount of speed through here.

Turn 2 -- reminded me of turn 11 at Mid-Ohio -- uphill right-hander, clear apex, blind, over-the-hill track out. But it's a slightly increasing radius, so you can floor it as long as you're dialed out of most of the steering by the time you crest the hill. Less "air" potential than the crest of the uphill at LRP.

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

Turn 4 -- another fast right hander. You need some brake, as you're cooking from the prior turn and a decent straight and you need to sacrifice the turn a little and go a little late-apex, because you have to "pinch" the track out to mid-track, as there's a sharp left coming up, and not quite enough room to track out full left and come back. First couple of laps, I downshifted here; later realized it made for a smoother brake/turn/gas to stay in 4th.

Turn 5 -- Late apex, hard left-hander. Seemed tighter than the map would suggest. To me, one of the hardest turns on the course, because there's a pretty long straight right after. Kind of felt like turn 5 at Summit Main (but no bumps).

Turn 6 -- 90 degree right-hander, pretty fast. Reminds me of turn 10 at Summit Main.

Turn 7 (8, 9) -- the "octopus". Opinions will vary, but I took this as a 3-apex complex. First "turn" is a standard 90 degree right, with a full track-out that sets you up for a second "turn" and more or less straight shot clipping the 2nd apex at the center of the bulb, then hard brake in a straight line to a sharp right -- similar feel to the way a lot of guys take turn 11 into the Oak Tree at VIR, except, like the end of the carousel at S.P., at track-out you have to stay mid-track or track right to make the next (left) turn.

Turn 10 -- another carousel-like turn, a left-hander. Need a little breathe of the throttle at the end to rotate to hit the late apex and set up the S's. Kind of like the "keyhole" at Shenandoah, but without the elevation change.

Turns 11, 12 -- very fast S's. Depending on where you are at track out from the previous turn, you can take these almost straight, WOT. The curbs are well-placed, and pretty forgiving.

Turn 14 -- very fast right-hander onto the front straight. There is a slightly raised concrete berm that separates the hot track from pit-in. If you're not too tightly sprung, it's a turning surface. I put both right wheels on it to straighten out the turn a little, and did not find it upset the car at all. Somebody in another group hit it hard, panicked, lifted, and spun here (and managed to hit the wall), so if you commit to it, you have to ride it out.

All in all, a fast track with some technical parts. I didn't feel even marginally smooth until the last run, and I'm sure I left many seconds (minutes?) on the table for the next time.

[PAracer]

Originally Posted by steveh

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

We had a red Subaru try the same thing, except not so lucky. He put two tires off on the outside of the turn, hooked right, spun, and pancaked the driver's side into the inside guardrail. Still turned a putrid shade of brown.

I think the dust clouds are going to be a constant through the years given the soil conditions of South Jersey.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of run off. This faciliy was built with club events in mind.

[ProCoach]

Originally Posted by steveh

I attended the NASA event on August 5, and made the following notes posted on a couple other forums. These are seat-of-the-pants impressions, comparing some of the turns to other tracks, but without traqmate, timer or video. My car was a '92 E36 BMW with M3 suspension on street tires:

Note: the track was run for this event without the optional chicanes, so some of the later turn numbers may be a little off.

Turn 1 -- very fast, slightly increasing radius right-hander. The challenge was to not over-brake at the end of the long front straight, as you could carry a fair amount of speed through here.

Turn 2 -- reminded me of turn 11 at Mid-Ohio -- uphill right-hander, clear apex, blind, over-the-hill track out. But it's a slightly increasing radius, so you can floor it as long as you're dialed out of most of the steering by the time you crest the hill. Less "air" potential than the crest of the uphill at LRP.

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

Turn 4 -- another fast right hander. You need some brake, as you're cooking from the prior turn and a decent straight and you need to sacrifice the turn a little and go a little late-apex, because you have to "pinch" the track out to mid-track, as there's a sharp left coming up, and not quite enough room to track out full left and come back. First couple of laps, I downshifted here; later realized it made for a smoother brake/turn/gas to stay in 4th.

Turn 5 -- Late apex, hard left-hander. Seemed tighter than the map would suggest. To me, one of the hardest turns on the course, because there's a pretty long straight right after. Kind of felt like turn 5 at Summit Main (but no bumps).

Turn 6 -- 90 degree right-hander, pretty fast. Reminds me of turn 10 at Summit Main.

Turn 7 (8, 9) -- the "octopus". Opinions will vary, but I took this as a 3-apex complex. First "turn" is a standard 90 degree right, with a full track-out that sets you up for a second "turn" and more or less straight shot clipping the 2nd apex at the center of the bulb, then hard brake in a straight line to a sharp right -- similar feel to the way a lot of guys take turn 11 into the Oak Tree at VIR, except, like the end of the carousel at S.P., at track-out you have to stay mid-track or track right to make the next (left) turn.

Turn 10 -- another carousel-like turn, a left-hander. Need a little breathe of the throttle at the end to rotate to hit the late apex and set up the S's. Kind of like the "keyhole" at Shenandoah, but without the elevation change.

Turns 11, 12 -- very fast S's. Depending on where you are at track out from the previous turn, you can take these almost straight, WOT. The curbs are well-placed, and pretty forgiving.

Turn 14 -- very fast right-hander onto the front straight. There is a slightly raised concrete berm that separates the hot track from pit-in. If you're not too tightly sprung, it's a turning surface. I put both right wheels on it to straighten out the turn a little, and did not find it upset the car at all. Somebody in another group hit it hard, panicked, lifted, and spun here (and managed to hit the wall), so if you commit to it, you have to ride it out.

All in all, a fast track with some technical parts. I didn't feel even marginally smooth until the last run, and I'm sure I left many seconds (minutes?) on the table for the next time.

Your turn numbers are correct and your assessment of the Octopus is correct (3-apex). I don't believe T3 is flat in most cars quicker than a Miata, though.

Nice write-up. Good job deciphering the course.

-Peter (responsible for the curb placement everywhere except T14...)

[steveh]

Thanks Peter!

I've generally driven relatively low-HP cars on track (Porsche 951, Miata, E36 BMW), so I can see where more ponies would require judicious throttle through T3. I was surprised at how fast it was -- keeping with the "what's it like?" theme, it felt a lot like T4 at Summit Main, where I can keep the hammer down in the Miata, but a lot of guys with more HP have to breathe throttle, and maybe brakes, to make it.

The rear-engine guys (911's) seem to think that the octopus is more a "hug the inside curb" turn. Is this one of the (rare) instances where your car setup might affect the ideal line?

Even though you didn't do it, do you know what's with the curbing at T14? I've never seen that before -- usually, it's a painted line or a "hard" curb (like T1 at Mid-O). I've already seen a lot of different opinions on how many wheels, if any, to allow up on that curbing, and poor judgment on that turn can (has already) result in a bad outcome.

[PAracer]

Very true. T3 requires a breathe of the throttle to make it through. We had a Subaru that went wide, hooked, then ended up in the inside guard rail. Since T2 is kinda blind, you can easily end up carrying more speed int 3 than you thought possible

The octopus really does inspire a great deal of opinions. I started by taking the first apex as a normal turn, then hugging the outside. Approaching the next turn in from the extreem left side and turning in an holding the right side after apex.
On sunday I began doing what the instructors were trying. The first apex is like a typical turn (apex just after halfway and track out to the left edge). There was a second apex that aimed the car at the beginning of the inside curb. Then I would work toward the outside (halfway out or so) and pitch the car to the inside curb to make an entrance for the never ending left.
The key is to get as much wide open throttle as possible between apexes and approach the final left hand corner in such a way that you can maintain momentum and enter the run onto the front stretch with the most speed.