PDA

View Full Version : Week 8 rFactor Challenge - Barber Motorsports Park "The Barber's beatdown"


jstecher
12-10-2008, 03:31 PM
Welcome to Alabama as the rFactor challenge rolls into town to one of the best racing tracks in the US. Back from the ungodly flat terrain of Mexico we are now challenged with a slew of elevation changes sure to give everyone fits.

Get out there and crank out some times as this track has lots of different lines and I can tell you all the ones I drove in the FBMW (no not the one straight into the wall) are a lot different than what you can do with the SRF. But its a hell of a lot of fun in this car.

Doug Carter
12-10-2008, 03:48 PM
What an awesome track.

Here are some track maps (http://www.barbermotorsports.com/trackmaps.php), too. And you WILL need the elevation one.

f2000keith
12-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Yep, this should be a fun one!!! Lookin' forward to it.

HawkBat
12-11-2008, 04:59 PM
I have to say the track is fun. I just need to turn more laps and such. Hopefully will have more time to do that since I am just need to turn in some odds and ends.

What day will people be on. I need to see a target on track to go against.

Bob McCown
12-11-2008, 05:57 PM
Yea, this track is nifty. I've got about 20 laps in, I'm still working on the line, but I can see its a neat track to run.

jstecher
12-11-2008, 08:59 PM
Yeah lots of different lines around this baby so it makes for a good race. Problem is passing is a little tricky with no real 'proper' passing places. Getting S3 right is what matters if I remember right from last year.

HawkBat
12-11-2008, 11:01 PM
Ok I am going to get a little cocky, cause I can for once. Watch out! 10th in times right now and moving up. Mossie is next on my list!

Mossie
12-12-2008, 12:06 PM
Here's the replay, setup and Motec for the 42.8. It was kinda a lucky lap, but I was a little slow in T14, so it can be improved on. More rear spring definitely helped. Good track :D

Doug Carter
12-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Wait a minute, Mossie. How exactly are you braking, turning and on the gas at the same time?

First of all, my controller won't allow braking and throttle at the same time. Second, if I was on the brakes in places you are here, the car instantly is pointed the other direction.



WTF? :stupid:

f2000keith
12-13-2008, 12:45 PM
First of all, my controller won't allow braking and throttle at the same time.


Yes, you can. You need to unchceck the single axis option in the wheel options in the control panel.

Doug Carter
12-13-2008, 12:52 PM
In the game or somewhere else? There is no such checkbox that I can find within the game settings. :(

Mossie
12-13-2008, 01:08 PM
Wait a minute, Mossie. How exactly are you braking, turning and on the gas at the same time?

First of all, my controller won't allow braking and throttle at the same time. Second, if I was on the brakes in places you are here, the car instantly is pointed the other direction.
WTF? :stupid:

Hey Doug, hahaah,hehehe. all part of my evil plan, and what wheel and pedals exactly are you using? and is there a picture of mickey mouse anywhere on them? ok, just kidding, but seriously, it should be possible to give it gas and brake at the same time, like Keith said. I had that problem when I used to have a logi momo. I think there was a check box in the logitec software somewhere that made it a separate axis. Now I use a g25 wheel and home made pedals that are a separate usb device. (google, todd cannon pedals, for the plans) I highly recommend them, they feel much more real.

Next question, is there any reason to gas and brake at the same time? and what am I doing? Like T2-T3, you can see it in the motec data. It looks like I'm on and off the gas, tapping the brakes and turning at the same time. What I'm doing is trying to rotate the car as early as possible, get it pointed in the right direction, then hit the gas, causing a little over steer out of the corner. My theory is that if you lift part way, tap the brakes, and turn at the same time. Whats happening is.. the engine is slightly over powering the rear brakes, making the car have a lot of front brake bias. This shifts the cars weight forward, (nose goes down), now with most of the cars weight on the nose, turn, causing the car to rotate. I've never tried this in a real car, I would be interested to hear what more experienced people (here) think about this idea, but I have gotten in some decent lap times.

Grintch
12-13-2008, 01:21 PM
Here's the replay, setup and Motec for the 42.8. It was kinda a lucky lap, but I was a little slow in T14, so it can be improved on. More rear spring definitely helped. Good track :D

Thanks Mossie - very instructive.

Doug, you just now noticed he was left foot braking? What always surprises me is when we have identical traces through a corner, yet doing it very differently. I am tempted to turn on the auto clutch and use the paddle shifters to see if that moves me up a couple notches on the leader board, but of course, that makes the training less valuable. Of course that is not my problem in trying to carry as much speed as Mossie in T1. But it should help in the corkscrew.

f2000keith
12-13-2008, 01:41 PM
It's in the control panel, Doug. Under Game Controller settings for the G25.

Mossie
12-13-2008, 01:46 PM
just now noticed he was left foot braking?

Thanks Bruce, You're right, I should have explained that. Which brings up another point, how can Doug toe and heel, if he can't give it gas and brake at the same time. And of course there's no reason you can't use the left foot some of the time, as long as no shift is needed.

Doug Carter
12-13-2008, 09:30 PM
Like in a real race car, I left foot brake all the time. Use the left foot on the clutch at the start and that's it.

I didn't just notice any braking differences with Mossie, other than the fact that he can trail brake DEEP into corners that are impossible with my wheel setup as it is. If I am not doing ALL braking in a straight line, the car spins in a heartbeat. And forget it if the braking zone is not perfectly flat. :grumble: I've known that Skeen and Mossie are killing me in the braking zones sine the start of this series, but that last video showed Mossie on the brakes and/or gas where it isn't possible with the setup I am currently using (G25).



Thanks Keith, I didn't even know there was a control panel for the G25 outside of the game. In fact, I don't think I ever installed any software for this wheel at all. :stupid:

Gonna have to go back and look now.

f2000keith
12-13-2008, 11:03 PM
Yeah, no software needed for the G25. It automatically gets picked up as a G25 by XP. In the control panel there is a Game Controller area where you can see where the G25 is picked up and then go into the advanced setting to see the option I'm talking about. Even though it says "Used for most games", leave that option unchecked so you don't have it on the same axis.

Bob McCown
12-14-2008, 04:23 PM
Wow. I loaded Mossie's config, and the car is more predictable, but my times on the course went up a couple seconds. I need to un-learn everything about the track up until now.

:grumble::grumble::grumble:

Doug Carter
12-14-2008, 04:59 PM
I was kinda stunned at Mossie's 8-degrees of steering. :eek:

Great setup with a few tweaks to suit my style. Now if I could just get that last sector down...


Oh, by the way, the single axis thing... :stupid: Holy crap, I can't believe I drove the whole first half of the season like that.

Warpedcow
12-14-2008, 05:39 PM
I didn't just notice any braking differences with Mossie, other than the fact that he can trail brake DEEP into corners that are impossible with my wheel setup as it is. If I am not doing ALL braking in a straight line, the car spins in a heartbeat. And forget it if the braking zone is not perfectly flat. :grumble:

What are you running for brake bias? I find the car trail-brakes very well at 52.5/47.5 F/R. Sometimes I tweak it .5 in either direction depending on the track, but that's what I usually run.

Doug Carter
12-14-2008, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I'm up around 52/48, depending on if they are locking up the rears or not. The car seems to stop quicker around 51/49, though.


Still have no idea how you guys are in the 42s here. :bow:

Matt Newcombe
12-15-2008, 03:53 PM
Pretty interesting to note how close most of the lap times are - nice driving everyone! Now that I'm in the middle of the hotlaps board, anyone up for some laps tonight?

HawkBat
12-15-2008, 04:05 PM
I will be up for laps tonight. I just need to get a much needed nap first.

Mike_B
12-15-2008, 11:44 PM
I should prolly turn some laps here sometime soon. :eek:

Doug Carter
12-16-2008, 08:48 AM
Terrible track to "jump into." Took me a LOT of laps this week, only to wind up 11th on the speed charts. Very tough to just pick right up and race...

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 08:52 AM
For the life of me I can't figure out the corkscrew, or 14/14a, even after watching Mossie's hot lap. :(

Skeen
12-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Terrible track to "jump into." Took me a LOT of laps this week, only to wind up 11th on the speed charts. Very tough to just pick right up and race...

I dunno, my time was on my 3rd lap. Though I have driven the track in person, which I guess helps.

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 11:06 AM
I dunno, my time was on my 3rd lap. Though I have driven the track in person, which I guess helps.

bptbptbptbpt :grumble:

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 11:56 AM
3 laps?! Ouch.

Are we really just that slow? :O

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 11:59 AM
3 laps?! Ouch.

Are we really just that slow? :O

Apparently, yes. I think I'm about done with the league, I'm just a rolling chicane at the back of the pack during the races.

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 12:16 PM
Hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way Bob - I was just referring to how much most of us can still improve. Seeing as this league is just for fun, the more racers that stick around the better (regardless of your speed).

Doug Carter
12-16-2008, 12:21 PM
Don't bail, Bob. This is a great league made up of mostly real drivers. Can't worry about the SIM nerds—they will always be faster than the rest of us. :D

And Skeen, well the phrase "suck it" comes to mind. :D :p

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 12:25 PM
Besides, hopefully you (and I) will learn something that we can put to use on the RL track.

HawkBat
12-16-2008, 01:35 PM
Yeah Bob don't go! We can still go at it! And we are not moving chicanes!

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 02:25 PM
It's frustrating. I've been screwing with my controller setup all this week, and there's still something not 'right'. I think it's a combination of no real peripheral vision (I'm always too far from the track edge), and the steering wheel feel is not right. I seem to have a pretty big dead spot in the middle of the wheel, and I drift back and forth about half a car's width when I'm going down a straight. I've checked the in-game 'dead spot' settings and they're all at 0. Grr :grumble::grumble::grumble::grumble:

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 02:45 PM
What about the "Speed Sensitivity" setting or the rate on that axis? Have you messed with those? You might try turning down the speed sensitivity (or up, I can't remember which way it goes). Have you looked at what the input looks like on the wheel in the controller options screen in rFactor? What about in Windows? Do they match?

The grass is pretty tame here. Try getting closer until you are just touching the grass (and getting the sound). Remember what that looks like. It took me a while to figure it out. You can also adjust your FoV in the game if you think that may help. You can find instructions at the bottom of the first post here: http://www.racesimulations.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1719. If it's still a problem, the only thing I can recommend is getting a TrackIR so you can glace to the side.

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 03:03 PM
DOH! I had RealFeel installed. Took that out, and the feel is better. At least I can run mid 1:45s consistently now.

Thanks for the FOV tip, Ill play around with that.

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 03:10 PM
Hmmm FoV, never played with that but sounds like it can make a pretty big difference to your in-car experience. Personally, I know my G25 has had a deadzone on centre which at times can make it difficult to keep on track if you're right on the edge of the pavement... guess it's just something you try and get used to.

I've played with the G25 configuration files in rFactor but haven't really been able to make an improvement with the 'centering' zone or feel.

Grintch
12-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Tons of threads on RaceSimCentral on wheel/FFB setup. Unfortunately, most are crap. But you occasionally find a nugget in them. I stumbled on one that greatly improved the on center feel, but I can't seem to find it again. I'll have to look at my controller.ini and see if I can remember what the trick was.

What was happened that has a half dozen people in the 42's? I have to work my ass off and drive right on the ragged edge to run a 43. I will have to give up a bit of speed during the race to avoid hitting the tire barriers in the corkscrew (boy I'm glad the real track doesn't have those). Watch out during the first lap, as I suspect the corkscrew will be even more dangerous than the chicane at Fundidora Park with everyone auditioning for the next Duke's of Hazard movie.

Grintch
12-16-2008, 04:15 PM
I seem to have a pretty big dead spot in the middle of the wheel, and I drift back and forth about half a car's width when I'm going down a straight. I've checked the in-game 'dead spot' settings and they're all at 0. Grr :grumble::grumble::grumble::grumble:


Try turning down the FFB steer force exponent setting in the Controler.ini (in User data\your name) for better on center feel

FFB steer force exponent="0.64483" seems to work for me (I think 1 is the default).

Warpedcow
12-16-2008, 04:31 PM
I dunno, my time was on my 3rd lap.

And with stock setup (aside from brake bias) no less.

Honestly, it's just consistency. (I say that like it's easy, but it's not!) Mike has that to an extent far above anyone else here IMHO. If I cherry pick my segment times I could probably find a high 1:41, but I'm just not that consistent, even after dozens and dozens of laps. Plus, there are about a million different lines around this track and it's hard to find the best one unless you've been racing since the cradle. :lol:

Regarding deadzone and weaving on track - I had that happen a lot to me too initially. I think it's partly FFB weirdness, personally I've just managed to get used to it I guess. I did find it FAR easier to control and catch oversteer when I set my steering speed sensitivity MUCH lower. I might try turning it lower still after tonight's race.

As far as getting used to the "width" of these cars, try to kiss all the tire barriers at corner apexes at this track, you will learn fast. :D

HawkBat
12-16-2008, 05:29 PM
hey guys I hope to be on tonight. My entire area just recovered from power loss. The snow is still falling. My APC unit that I thought survived the flood just too a shit on me. Going to have to do a scan.

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 05:40 PM
I'll be on, but I'll be cutting it close. If I don't make qualifying, just start me in the back. That's where Ill be anyway!

See all y'all in a couple hours.

Skeen
12-16-2008, 08:34 PM
That "race" was ridiculous. I think I'm done as well.

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 08:45 PM
We're restarting the race due to the lagginess of the server. Come back.

NM.

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 09:04 PM
Wow


Just


wow

Mad Mike
12-16-2008, 09:13 PM
From 10th on the grid I think I nailed the green - passed a few cars - forgot to allow for cold tires and spun in T2 (sorry everyone, that was totally my fault) - got going again - was doing what I could to allow racing room for Skeen and others around me in midpack - came into 7 under control, avoided a couple crashing into one another there and then was rear-ended by a red car (Todd Brake?) so hard I ended up in last place so I just f---ing left. I returned to spectate a little bit later and saw all the ballyhoo about restarting the race - what was all that about?

Bob McCown
12-16-2008, 09:18 PM
Massive lag and teleporting, it seems. Lots of people ended up everywhichwhere.

13 of us ended up in the paddock, not racing, 7 or 8 racing, ignoring the chat window or something. Race finished, we tried to restart the race, and the finishers kept voting no. Stupid.

Now I see the race has restarted.

:grumble::grumble::grumble::grumble::grumble::grum ble::grumble::grumble:

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 09:25 PM
13 of us ended up in the paddock, not racing, 7 or 8 racing, ignoring the chat window or something. Race finished, we tried to restart the race, and the finishers kept voting no. Stupid.

Now I see the race has restarted.

Why should they leave? They got great points for racing against nobody. :stupid: I'm pretty frustrated now, can't imagine the fast guys who had problems. They must really be pissed. <sarcasm> Well at least two more guys are getting points in the restarted race. </sarcasm>

As far as the lag goes, somebody spun on T2. They were sideways in front of me. I had nowhere to go. I hit them and went right through as if they weren't there. I looked in the mirror and they were right on my tail. Very weird.

Mad Mike
12-16-2008, 09:29 PM
I couldn't get back in short of as a spectator. Kind of a pisser - I wouldn't have minded a chance to restart that mess (and mind the cold tires this time).

Clearly we need someone not racing to play steward (whether it's a rotating responsibility or one benevolent someone offers to do it for the remainder of the series) to deal with these hiccups when they appear. I see both sides of the disagreement earlier this evening - like previously this season a large percentage of the field found themselves unable to compete through no fault of their own and understandably keen to restart the race. Others managed to complete the race distance and weren't keen to do it all over again. These are the kinds of things a steward with some manner of admin rights could square away in a more timely manner in the future.

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 10:01 PM
Hmm this is a toughy. I think we all need to take a breather and calm down. Unfortunately, I think most of us forgot the rules that were already in place "Race Restarts: If more than half of the racing field (defined as (total starting competitors / 2)) are taken out during the first lap the race will be restarted. This is allowed only once."

Not really sure what else to say other than nothing should be taken personally and we all make mistakes.

HawkBat
12-16-2008, 10:01 PM
We still have bugs and some things that need to be addressed. I would like to remind everyone to keep a cool head.

Remember Kevin Bacon in Animal House

"Remain Calm, All is Well!"


No matter how shit things get I still seem to have fun, the power outage tonight really messed up me getting into the mood.


Also what do you guys do to stay 100% focused. I keep making clumsy errors or just other foolish mistakes and not sure if it is distractions or what.

p.s. doug your right weather might be effecting. this storm my connection was slower then normal while browsing.

Doug Carter
12-16-2008, 10:08 PM
Ping numbers were high in qualifying, and it was obvious that some were going to get bounced. It's too bad, too. That was really entertaining.

We might be at the point where only a certain number of people can qualify for the race, then the others would have to race in a Consolation race. I think the weather might have had something to do with it tonight, or maybe something else, but the lag was obvious.

I'm wondering if everyone is still using their video and connection settings turned all the way down as far as reasonably possible?

Warpedcow
12-16-2008, 10:15 PM
Unfortunately, I think most of us forgot the rules that were already in place "Race Restarts: If more than half of the racing field (defined as (total starting competitors / 2)) are taken out during the first lap the race will be restarted. This is allowed only once."

Exactly! The sad part was watching the 3 or 4 of the 19 that got screwed talk most of the rest of the field in to quitting early in hopes of a restart. Which didn't happen until the 1st race was over anyway because Keith and I were having too darn much fun! :D

No idea WTF John/Keith will do for points. My suggestion of course is to just total everyone's points from both races :D :rockon: :cheers:

Mossie
12-16-2008, 10:18 PM
To bad about the confusion, but still had fun. Warpedcow won both races, congrats Cow! The first race I didn't see any lights, think I was looking at a fence post or something, waiting for it to turn green. lol. From the front row you have to look left to see the lights, should have done a practice race. But the second race was fun, and had a good start, chased Matthew for a while and spun, then chased Doug. Oh well, we will get it right next time.:cheers:

Todd
12-16-2008, 10:29 PM
From 10th on the grid I think I nailed the green - passed a few cars - forgot to allow for cold tires and spun in T2 (sorry everyone, that was totally my fault) - got going again - was doing what I could to allow racing room for Skeen and others around me in midpack - came into 7 under control, avoided a couple crashing into one another there and then was rear-ended by a red car (Todd Brake?) so hard I ended up in last place so I just f---ing left. I returned to spectate a little bit later and saw all the ballyhoo about restarting the race - what was all that about?

I think maybe you should watch your replay, the only contact between me and you was from you getting off track on the inside of the entry to turn 5, crossing the track to the outside and then coming down on me getting back into the track. Lucky for both of us the warping prevented it from registering as contact and there was no trouble at all. Then later going through the screw you spun out and I passed you with no contact at all according to the replay (all on lap 2). So if any of that happened on your display I hate it but it wasn't on mine.

Doug Carter
12-16-2008, 10:31 PM
Maybe if there weren't so many yappy women clucking during qualifying and racing all the time, Keith would have his in-race chat window ON and some of these problems would be rectified as they happen instead of after the races are over.

:rolleyes: :p

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 10:39 PM
Yup probably a bit of a hypocrit, I apologize. I was gunna stick it out and race, but decided to try and help those who got the short end of the stick at the start. Sorta got caught up in the chat that was going on to... live and learn I suppose.

Mike_B
12-16-2008, 11:06 PM
Unfortunately, I think most of us forgot the rules that were already in place "Race Restarts: If more than half of the racing field (defined as (total starting competitors / 2)) are taken out during the first lap the race will be restarted. This is allowed only once."

Road Atlanta

I was gunna stick it out and race, but decided to try and help those who got the short end of the stick at the start. Sorta got caught up in the chat that was going on to... live and learn I suppose.

Right. What I've learned is never listen to Matt during a race. :D

Matt Newcombe
12-16-2008, 11:16 PM
Good call, I wouldn't listen to me either ha!

f2000keith
12-16-2008, 11:55 PM
I would love to turn the chat window on, but the chatting discipline for some guys sucks (to put it nicely). In previous leagues, it was known that once qualifying starts that you don't chat until the checkered for the session waves FOR THE LAST GUY RUNNING. Same thing goes for the race. People should be considerate of others when online. I don't need to read about how bad you took that last corner or apology after apology for running someone off the road, I don't really care. Apologize after all is over with and we're ALL back in the chat room. A lot of people forget that even when you're done with your race, there could be guys racing for position still a few minutes after you're done.

The only time chat is arguably useful in a race is when someone is exiting the pit lane or giving a point by to a faster car. To be honest though, I could do without those too. It's more distracting than useful. I can see who is in my general area by looking at the position line at the bottom of the screen.

If we all agree to be courteous to other drivers, then I'll try turning my in car chat screen on so I can better observe any restart issues. If people find it necessary to unnecessarily chat, then I'll just shut it off again and whatever happens at the start of races goes.

I'd love for everything to work as planned and I can understand those who are frustrated, but connectivity issues are out of my hands. We had less than 20 guys running tonight which is well within the bandwidth that I have available to me. The server isn't under any resource load and some of us didn't have any issues running tonight. I don't really know what else to try.

HawkBat
12-17-2008, 12:18 AM
Ok I will do my best to shut the hell up. In chat, and in person. I know I am a guilty party. During a race I try to keep it to minimum.

Grintch
12-17-2008, 09:19 AM
"Race Restarts: If more than half of the racing field (defined as (total starting competitors / 2)) are taken out during the first lap the race will be restarted. This is allowed only once."


I counted 17 or 18 making it through the first corner. And watching the replay, it appears most people made mistakes & wrecked, and THEN quit and joined the "restart" party. For whoever was complaining about it screwing up your timing, that can be fixed by reviewing the replay to determine your real position. And who thought it was a good idea to set up a road block in the last corner?

I understand the frustration. I was one of the many that got the shaft at Road Atlanta. So why are the rules different this time? And having some people run the race twice doesn't really equalize the fact that some people only got to run it once.

P.S. Great drive Cow, I tried all week to match Mossies 42.8 without success. Your in race 42.2 was just amazing.

Doug Carter
12-17-2008, 09:28 AM
Agreed. Lost in all of this were TWO stellar drives by Dave at a very difficult track to be consistent on. He led wire to wire in both races. I spent much of both races in 3rd place, and all I did for both runs was watch that (1) car on the track map move further and further away from me (and second place, everyone else, etc.).

Brilliant runs, both of them. Well done, Dave.

Mike_B
12-17-2008, 09:29 AM
Here's a utility that may help some of you. It's a game launcher. You set up a profile for a game (or group of games/apps/whatever). Then when you launch the game through the app it shuts down all services, processes, programs, etc. that you specify. You can set it up to launch other apps before launching the primary app (good for launching your profiler, Teamspeak/Ventrilo, or your TrackIR software). When you're done, you hit the "restore" button and it restarts everything. In the next version (due out soon) it will allow you to choose what to restart. Anyway, the end result is that you can be sure that your system is running as cleanly as possible. I've been using it for a while. While it is a bit tedious to set up the profile (stuff like figuring out that my anti-virus had to be shut down as a service rather than as a process), it works really well and will allow you to shut down even things like Norton A/V, etc.
XP Game Launcher (http://home.comcast.net/~animl/xpgl.htm)

Matthew Inge
12-17-2008, 09:39 AM
Well, in an effort to not offend anyone, here it goes.
Last night was bullsh*t.
Finally get a pole for the race and I get stuck in the back. I get hit going into 2, then run right through a stopped car, and fall to the back. Next, I do 3 laps before getting credit for 1. Why should I stay? So, I leave the race and some more people are having the same problem and of course we are going to chat and find out wtf is going on. ITS THE ONLY WAY WE CAN TALK!
I dont blame anyone for turning there chat window off, I wouldve to. Would I have stopped the race if I was still running, esp. in the Top 5, HELL NO!! (COW would have prob won the race anyway, very consistent when trying to follow by the way. I was hoping he would hold up and we could race the second go around.)

I love racing in this league and Keith and John have done a great job creating this all. The people in it are awesome, but putting time in it to have the outcome some have had, frankly just blows. Racing in this leagure I was hoping to get away from Forza or NASCAR where you can bounce off people and walls and keep going...

AND BTW: Something that really pissed me off (while Im here) was that everyone started to attack Dave (tifosi). I know we were all heated and wanted to restart, but come on. BS



Enough of my bitching and Ill throw in this little guy for fun (:rockon:) Anyway, going home for break and wont have wheel till jan 20th; maybe a good thing.

Warpedcow
12-17-2008, 10:32 AM
Next, I do 3 laps before getting credit for 1.

One thing I noticed during I think the 2nd race, was that partway through a lap, the position tracker thing started dropping me from 1st, to 2nd, 3rd, etc... down to LAST. It was like it was confused and thought i had just stopped driving. It wasn't "lag" because I could still see other cars driving around just fine. After about another lap of driving, the game timing and scoring system "caught up" and everything was normal again. Did anyone else notice this?

I wonder Matthew if you had kept driving, perhaps the game would have corrected itself?

Another thing, for the 1st race last night (and all previous races) my screen would load for the race well before the 30 second timer even starts. For the 2nd race though, it didn't load until the timer was down to 15 or so. Maybe some people just don't get loaded fast enough and that's what causes these problems. Keith, can we increase that time to 60 seconds maybe?

In the future, restarting needs to be the call of an admin, maybe give John and a few others admin access. And the call needs to happen in the first couple laps of the race. Can you imagine how irate I would have been had that "restart race" vote passed with 2 laps to go? :lol:

Also, IMHO we SHOULD stick to the league rules, which state if half the grid or more gets wrecked in the first lap (wrecked can include lag or other weirdness issues) then we restart. If 49% get "wrecked", tough cookies kids, rules say the race goes on. This league has enough races that if the problems are truly random, it should hurt everyone equally overall. If the problems aren't random, well fix your damn internet connection or PC because some of us are just fine :D

Warpedcow
12-17-2008, 10:36 AM
There should also be a specific procedure for determining who gets wrecked or wants to claim lag issues or other weirdness. Maybe just have everyone type "RESTART VOTE" in chat who wants a restart, and require that to happen in the first 2 laps or something? If we get >50% of people saying that then the admin will restart, if not, sign off and start practicing for next week I guess :) Of course this assumes people will otherwise shut the hell up during the race so Keith will be willing to turn chat back on :D

Mad Mike
12-17-2008, 10:40 AM
I think maybe you should watch your replay,

First off - no worries. I've maintained an attitude of 'sim racing ignorance' from the git-go so I'm damned if I can even find the replay. Not like it makes any real difference since I'm more pissed at myself for letting frustration lead to abandoning the race than anything that happened on-track. This is virtual racing for goodness sake - it's not like I have to mix up a batch of Bondo or replace tires to fix my virtual race car. Even if I'd have avoided trouble, pulled a string of 1:40s out of my ass, run down the Cow and won the race I'd still be here this morning hammering on this keyboard after all ...

But I was frustrated finding myself off-track and dead last after spending so much time practicing (thanks to a couple military advanced driver training gigs I was supposed to instruct getting canceled and/or postponed right after the election last month) and a truly non-flat circuit that finally allowed me to log laps "only" a couple seconds off the top times (instead of a couple decades). I know that transitioning from real race/rally cars to sims is THE toughest thing I've tackled in over 40 years of driving!

Anyway, if someone could point me to the replay (it's clearly not in my Replay Fridge) I'd like to assess just how bad my real-time observations were last night. Whether my off-track excursions were aided/caused by my faulty driving or thanks to either another driver's help or one of the digital glitches that apparently infest this pasttime I'm not upset about the outcome and remain happy to have the opportunity to "race."

Happiness, after all, is every bit as virtual as is this racing league! :D

Warpedcow
12-17-2008, 10:48 AM
Anyway, if someone could point me to the replay (it's clearly not in my Replay Fridge)

I think by default replays get recorded, but maybe your setting got turned off and it didn't even get recorded? I don't have rfactor here at work so I can't point you to it right now... I could post my replays later today. Or better still, maybe Keith can post the ones from the server itself as I think that is where collisions and such actually get calculated.

Mad Mike
12-17-2008, 10:52 AM
I think by default replays get recorded, but maybe your setting got turned off and it didn't even get recorded? I don't have rfactor here at work so I can't point you to it right now... I could post my replays later today. Or better still, maybe Keith can post the ones from the server itself as I think that is where collisions and such actually get calculated.

Cool. I've been able to d/l, place and play the *.VCR files folks have linked here before so that would be great if last night's racing could be shared.

Thanks again!

Doug Carter
12-17-2008, 11:10 AM
I record all of the race videos, so if Keith doesn't post the videos, I will put it up later.

Matt Newcombe
12-17-2008, 11:46 AM
Are you running Vista Mike? I recently found out that my replays weren't being recorded to the "Replay Fridge" folder in my rFactor directory, but rather in an rFactor folder under "Documents". Something to do with administrator settings I guess.

Mad Mike
12-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Are you running Vista Mike? I recently found out that my replays weren't being recorded to the "Replay Fridge" folder in my rFactor directory, but rather in an rFactor folder under "Documents". Something to do with administrator settings I guess.

No Vista - just XP. I have vids of all the stuff I did off the server so maybe it was my indelicate escape from the race last night that caused rFactor to say "F--- you Halley, close these things with some respect or you get no replays!"

Mike_B
12-17-2008, 12:13 PM
AND BTW: Something that really pissed me off (while Im here) was that everyone started to attack Dave (tifosi). I know we were all heated and wanted to restart, but come on. BS

FYI, I wasn't picking on Dave when I said we should all go to in-car of him in the hopes it would lag him out. Initially I thought we should do that do each driver in turn based on the assumption that there were lag issues. The top two guys were the Carters after Warped. I thought, "Those guys are probably playing directly on the server, so nothing we could do would lag them." So I thought, "Start from the bottom of the list." Of course, as I was typing it I remembered that it's all delayed anyway, so it would not have had any effect. At that point, it became tongue-in-cheek. I don't know about anything anybody else said, as some of that chat was going so fast I quit trying to keep up.

Doug Carter
12-17-2008, 12:25 PM
...so maybe it was my indelicate escape from the race last night that caused rFactor to say "F--- you Halley"...

Actually, the replay does get saved after the race is over, so that would be why you don't have last night's race.


The top two guys were the Carters after Warped. I thought, "Those guys are probably playing directly on the server, so nothing we could do would lag them."

Actually, I'm about an hour away from the server, playing on a wireless fiber optic connection and a Mac laptop (BootCamp/XP). I'm actually really surprised that I'm one of the people who isn't having any issues on race day. Maybe it's because I have everything in video and connection dialed down as far as I can reasonably go. I donno, but I have seen almost no issues since the season started.

Either way, we only have seen any major issues on race night during races (not even in qualfying), so I'm wondering where the weak link in the chain might be. I don't know that it is indeed, the server.

f2000keith
12-17-2008, 01:27 PM
Maybe "Microsoft Patch" Tuesday isn't the best night for the league. If MS releases any new patches that are being downloaded across the globe on Tuesday and network infrastructure around the US is tolled maybe it could be the root of some issues people are having..... Maybe I'm grasping at straws..

Warpedcow
12-17-2008, 02:18 PM
Maybe I'm grasping at straws..

DING DING DING! :p

Keith, did you see my question about the pre-race timer and making it longer?


Another thing, for the 1st race last night (and all previous races) my screen would load for the race well before the 30 second timer even starts. For the 2nd race though, it didn't load until the timer was down to 15 or so. Maybe some people just don't get loaded fast enough and that's what causes these problems. Keith, can we increase that time to 60 seconds maybe?

jstecher
12-17-2008, 02:56 PM
So I skipped ahead to here to comment cause I didn't want to get caught up in any of the arguing. Once again sadly I have to say I apologize for what happened during the race last night. I am not sure why there were issues at the start of the race and I feel bad that there were. I also take full responsibility for not restarting the race because I forgot the admin password to the server. The race should have been restarted 100% because the grid did not properly form. Matthew should have been on pole and the grid flowed from there but it was screwed up and should have been restarted.

Beyond that I have no clue why Matthew, myself and others ended up laps down at the start for no apparent reason that's something I have never ever seen before so lord only knows what caused it. Then I ran some laps and had a good time with people lagging out huge in front of me so I felt bad and stopped and tried to get the race restarted as I saw Matthew behind me and Skeen all multiple laps down.

At the end of the day once again I appologize for the mishap and as much as I would like to assure everyone it wont happen again I can't promise anything as its unknown what happened given everyone worked fine up until quali/race.

I am going to look into hosting the race server on an Amazon EC2 instance for the week after Christmas as a test. Then no one should be able to complain about lag cause the pipe in is as big as possible...but I am not sure on their limitations on supported software and what not so I cannot promise anything.

See you at Putnam next week.

Jon62
12-17-2008, 04:26 PM
I for one don't need apologies...Its a fun game to play and race against other folks...The fact that you host this is good enough for me...Something I couldn't do...

Sometimes things go bad...I was having the best race to date...no biggie...There will be others.

I am normally the better off when there is chaos at the start cause I can normally drive around it ( from my rear ward position on the pole ), see what its like towards the front of the pack for awhile, before the "crashed folks" come back and over take me...:(

:D

Mad Mike
12-17-2008, 07:55 PM
i for one don't need apologies...its a fun game to play and race against other folks...the fact that you host this is good enough for me...something i couldn't do...

Sometimes things go bad...i was having the best race to date...no biggie...there will be others.

I am normally the better off when there is chaos at the start cause i can normally drive around it ( from my rear ward position on the pole ), see what its like towards the front of the pack for awhile, before the "crashed folks" come back and over take me...:(

:d

+1

Doug Carter
12-17-2008, 10:49 PM
Replay videos...

Barber Motorsports Park, Race 1 (http://www.apexspeed.com/doug/rfactor/replays/Trackpedia%20Race%20-%20Birmingham%20v1.Vcr) (10.8mb)

Barber Motorsports Part, Race 2 (http://www.apexspeed.com/doug/rfactor/replays/Trackpedia%20Race%20-%20Birmingham%20v2.Vcr) (9.3mb)



Seriously crazy stuff going on at the back of the grid. Some cars had massive warping the whole race, some cars had none. Leads me to believe that it wasn't server-oriented, but that's just a guess.
(http://www.apexspeed.com/doug/rfactor/replays/Trackpedia%20Race%20-%20Birmingham%20v2.Vcr)

Mike_B
12-17-2008, 11:08 PM
Seriously crazy stuff going on at the back of the grid. Some cars had massive warping the whole race, some cars had none. Leads me to believe that it wasn't server-oriented, but that's just a guess.

The gridding problems were weird, as were the more than one car in the same spot problems. Other than that, it all looked normal.

Doug Carter
12-17-2008, 11:16 PM
Other than that, it all looked normal.

Other than the floating cars, that is...

Mad Mike
12-18-2008, 09:32 AM
Replay videos...
Barber Motorsports Park, Race 1 (http://www.apexspeed.com/doug/rfactor/replays/Trackpedia%20Race%20-%20Birmingham%20v1.Vcr) (10.8mb)
Barber Motorsports Part, Race 2 (http://www.apexspeed.com/doug/rfactor/replays/Trackpedia%20Race%20-%20Birmingham%20v2.Vcr) (9.3mb)
Seriously crazy stuff going on at the back of the grid. Some cars had massive warping the whole race, some cars had none. Leads me to believe that it wasn't server-oriented, but that's just a guess.


Thanks Doug! And, btw, thanks for the help the other day we got to practice together. A couple of your lines and the tip about the driving view helped me nail down my best qualifying position and the best start I've ever had in the league.

The replay ...

But first, a technical aside ...

We are dealing with a near incalculable number of variables to wade through in order to explain all the weirdness that went on. X number of cars from X number of internet connections in X number of geograhic locations and, likely, X number of local settings on X number of different computing rigs are just about guaranteed to skew X number of views of the proceedings. I say this cuz I'm left wondering if everyone saw what I did in the replay? Of course, I concentrated on what was going on with me and the cars near me during several replays. There was a lot of warping, a lot of cars speeding through solid objects, a lot of cars floating in air, a lot of replays that found the viewer temporarily in someone else's garage, which was odd for me since my replay was interupted several times looking out from a garage when I'd been paddocking in an EZ-Up all week. That garage anomoly was not seen Tuesday night - just in the replay (which might indicate things were getting weird well before all those cars found themselves back in the paddock).

This feels a whole lot like a problem deserving 3rd level support and analysis. Has anyone considered sending a copy of this replay to the rFactor folks to see if they have some suggestions that might help smooth things out in the future? For all we know they've run across similar weirdness and have a fix handy ...

So far as the race and my earlier comments about what happened, I'm happy to say I wasn't totally wrong - but I still blame no one but myself for the outcome. I did not jump the start but did find myself gaining several positions after the green. I certainly did spin out at T2 but it wasn't totally a cold tire issue since I nudged Bruce right at the crest of the hill with the brakes on which is sure to make the rear-end light as a feather! And like a feather the rear simply fluttered away. Several cars warped right through me and after regaining the track I noticed the replay showed my front tires locked full right for a while so I'm guessing the physics engine recorded some damage at T2 even though the car didn't handle like it had a race-ending steering problem. I will fall back on that steering damage as an excuse for why I seemed to be all over the track (and off it) from that point on. On several corners I thought I'd left Skeen enough room only to see in the replay that we were occupying the same space at the same time several times. That kind of screwy real-time feedback can lead to all manner of poor decisions going forward. Had I 'felt' an exchange of paint while alongside Skeen at a corner (like I've done once in a real Spec Racer) I'd have known to adjust at following ones. Ah well, nothing's perfect ...

I feel a little bad that Todd Brake took my first comments here as blaming him for my problem at T7B because that really was never my intent - but after looking at the replay I'd say that we were both correct in our analysis and both victims of the systemic weirdness. Had the physics engine stopped me when I did a head on into the 7B tire stack - like it did every time I hit them in practice & qualifying - then I would have never been in a position for him to rear-end/warp-atop me exiting 7B. I don't even know how one would allow for such - "Hey, he's gonna hit those tires and come to screeching halt - I'll just move over a little, stand on the gas and proceed." Then said car warps right through the tires and ends up smack in front. Pretty unavoidable I'd say ...

To wrap up - It sure appears that the two times we've had ~20 cars the weirdest results ensued so if rFactor cannot help maybe a good experiment would be to schedule 20 cars to race a circuit after halving the field for two preparatory races and then compare the amount of weirdness that ensues. If the two 10-car races go smoothly but the 20-car one looks like Tuesday night we'd at least know the glitches are car count related. Coordinating and pulling off such will certainly be a task but it's the best I can come up with at the moment ...

Again, many thanks to ApexSpeed and our rFactor league admins for letting us race. Even weird races are better than none - once you adjust your expectations ...

Grintch
12-18-2008, 10:05 AM
To wrap up - It sure appears that the two times we've had ~20 cars the weirdest results ensued so if rFactor cannot help maybe a good experiment would be to schedule 20 cars to race a circuit after halving the field for two preparatory races and then compare the amount of weirdness that ensues. If the two 10-car races go smoothly but the 20-car one looks like Tuesday night we'd at least know the glitches are car count related. Coordinating and pulling off such will certainly be a task but it's the best I can come up with at the moment ...


Does the results file list the total race elapsed time for each driver? This would allow for stitching together the results of two "heats" if we wanted smaller fields or a race and a makeup race to yield one composite result. I would suggest that anyone who runs both the race and the makeup race only get scored based on their best result, otherwise those that have problems or don't have time to run both still get screwed (can potentially only score 1/2 points).

Mad Mike
12-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Does the results file list the total race elapsed time for each driver? This would allow for stitching together the results of two "heats" if we wanted smaller fields or a race and a makeup race to yield one composite result. I would suggest that anyone who runs both the race and the makeup race only get scored based on their best result, otherwise those that have problems or don't have time to run both still get screwed (can potentially only score 1/2 points).

I'm not proposing this as any remedy for the race earlier this week - only trying to help nail down the problem(s) so we can look forward to better races in the future. I'm so far out of any kind of league standings that race results are of no importance to me. Getting to race on something other than flat tracks without all the warping and other weirdness would be something I would like a lot, however.

Bob McCown
12-18-2008, 10:29 AM
Mike: Interesting about the field size. I run the odd race on Calluster, and some other servers, but they've been with a dozen or so cars, never high-teens or twenties. Now, having worked with network software before, the more 'endpoints' you have, the more traffic you have between them, and it multiplies, not adds. I bet there is some practical limit on connection size vs # endpoints, but I dont know how to figure that out.

Bob McCown
12-18-2008, 10:39 AM
I've been pondering the idea of split-races, too, but I keep going back and forth between "Yea, great idea!" and "No f&*@ing way".

First, if there's a definite split of times, then I can see why it would be a good idea. If there is a huge disparity between #1 in qual and #10 in qual, then I can see splitting. Lets face it, there's no way I was going to run 1:41s at Barber. But, on the other hand, if by some miracle (see comment of leaders getting in accidents) I end up in the first 8-10 spots, I do learn a lot and manage to hold my own for a while. It never lasts, but I do have fun there for a while. But perhaps practice is more the place for that to happen.

I guess I'm rambling about it, but that's because I can see benefits of both sides.

HawkBat
12-18-2008, 12:36 PM
I just think we might be victims of our success. But that is a good thing. We just need to keep going along and fixing what we can and such. Hell I find even if there are problems with the servers or being smashed about, I still have a blast!

I think Tuesday was just not going to be anyone's day almost. The bad omen started with the snow in the Chicago area. Then it led to me losing power multiple times. getting almost no laps before the night started really messed up my great times I was getting all week.

But I think mike said it the best, victims of the systemic weirdness.

Maybe we can do a test night or something or do stuff to see what fixes the problems and what makes it worse. Just throwing out ideas.

Doug Carter
12-18-2008, 12:42 PM
I think y'all just have shitty connections. :D :p

Bob McCown
12-18-2008, 12:57 PM
What's wrong with my network connection?

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/AcousticCoupler-1.gif

Mike_B
12-18-2008, 12:59 PM
What's wrong with my network connection?

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/AcousticCoupler-1.gif

There's supposed to be another snow storm in Chicago tonight. Might be a good time for a quick test (and might make for some fun practice).

I think sending the info the rFactor is a great idea, except that their tech support consists of "post it on RCS." :stupid:

I'm pretty strongly against splitting the field. I've done that before with the GPL VROC-F2 league (back in the day they used to have to have 3 heats). The problem I see with splitting it is you end up with two separate groups of racers rather than one. The fast guys talk about their race, and us slow guys talk about ours and there's no overlap. Another problem is that you reduce the competition significantly. If we're doing 10 or 12 people on a server, how long will it be until most of us are driving the track by ourselves. While that does happen currently, it usually doesn't last. I don't know about anybody else, but hot lapping is not what I'm looking for in this league. I'm looking to race against other people and learn the art of driving relatively quickly in traffic. (My favorite league calls a yellow half-way through the race where everybody slows down, the drivers reverse the running order, then they call GREEN. There is always somebody racing against somebody else. It's a blast.)

Doug Carter
12-18-2008, 01:03 PM
What's wrong with my network connection?

That made me snort a laugh so loud, my co-worker came over to see if I was ok. :D

Mad Mike
12-18-2008, 01:44 PM
What's wrong with my network connection?

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/AcousticCoupler-1.gif

I have the upgrade to that rig - my phone's red ...

HawkBat
12-18-2008, 01:49 PM
LOL! That is great!

Mike about the snow storm.... SHUT UP!!!!! I know it is coming and want to just ignore the world outside.

I don't think it would hurt to do a test tonight. Won't be going anywhere.

just wondering if we could put the server in bizzaro mode and run all sorts of cars. Wonder if it is the SRF that is effecting the server, they have mystical powers after all.

Mad Mike
12-18-2008, 01:51 PM
There's supposed to be another snow storm in Chicago tonight. Might be a good time for a quick test (and might make for some fun practice).

If so, can we do Barber again for grins? It's the track closest in character to my home track (Hallett, but don't d/load the Hallett track available for rFactor because it blows - chunks!), it's the one to which I've had the most success acclimating (I probably won't bother running any circuits lacking meaningful topography from here on) and it's just a damned fun circuit upon which I need to race for real some day!

I'm prob available most evenings if we decide to do one of these tests again.

Warpedcow
12-18-2008, 02:56 PM
The problem I see with splitting it is you end up with two separate groups of racers rather than one. The fast guys talk about their race, and us slow guys talk about ours and there's no overlap.

Ummm, they're splitting it the wrong way then. Why not run put those who qualified in an even number spot in one race, and the odd numbers in the other? Both races would then have a roughly equal spread of "pace" or whatever.

Mike_B
12-18-2008, 04:15 PM
Ummm, they're splitting it the wrong way then. Why not run put those who qualified in an even number spot in one race, and the odd numbers in the other? Both races would then have a roughly equal spread of "pace" or whatever.

I think that's a great idea, except that it will reduce the competition for each driver even more significantly.

Warpedcow
12-18-2008, 07:23 PM
I think that's a great idea, except that it will reduce the competition for each driver even more significantly.

True, but how much competition does a driver get that lags out? ;)

Personally, I say maintain business as usual, but get some fricken rules in place for determining if a restart is needed and ACTUALLY DOING it (or not) within the first lap or two. I don't want to have to win TWO races every Tuesday :p

And has someone actually decided yet how points are being scored for the Barber race(s)?

jstecher
12-18-2008, 09:13 PM
so points = your best finish with max points being 12 or the amount of people that started the second race.

We will keep business as usual for the races in terms of fields and starts. I now have written down next to my server the actual admin code and will use it when something goes wrong and I deem there should be a restart. Same goes for Keith...so don't crash us the opening lap. :)

As for split starts its not as fun. If your like me I would rather run dead last and be wheel to wheel with someone the whole race than run alone out front.