PDA

View Full Version : Week 4 rFactor Challenge will be rerun Wednesday Nov 19th at 8CST


jstecher
11-18-2008, 09:44 PM
Due to the network issues tonight taking out half the field we will rerun the race tomorrow night at normal race time. Please show up prior to 8pm so we can perform a test with all racers connected to try and get to the bottom of the issue and then we will race.

Thanks for all your patience and I apologize for any issues folks got hit with tonight.

Mad Mike
11-18-2008, 09:52 PM
I'll be there.

Thanks again.

jstecher
11-18-2008, 09:57 PM
Keith and I think we have a few things narrowed down that probably didn't cause the problem tonight but will improve the performance of the server in general. So fingers crossed tomorrow night will be smooth as silk.

Todd
11-18-2008, 09:59 PM
Due to the network issues tonight taking out half the field we will rerun the race tomorrow night at normal race time. Please show up prior to 8pm so we can perform a test with all racers connected to try and get to the bottom of the issue and then we will race.

Thanks for all your patience and I apologize for any issues folks got hit with tonight.

Well I guess I won't be able to get this race in since I will be out of town the rest of the week. I don't suppose you would be interested in adding RA back in at the end of the season instead of rerunning it this week would you? I don't know if anyone else who was there tonight has a conflict for scheduling later this week or not, but I have a difficult time working out being home just one night a week for the race myself. If not, good luck to everyone.

Todd

Matt Newcombe
11-18-2008, 10:01 PM
Cool, hopefully we can get things sorted out.

kbrew8991
11-18-2008, 10:41 PM
Well I guess I won't be able to get this race in since I will be out of town the rest of the week. I don't suppose you would be interested in adding RA back in at the end of the season instead of rerunning it this week would you? I don't know if anyone else who was there tonight has a conflict for scheduling later this week or not, but I have a difficult time working out being home just one night a week for the race myself. If not, good luck to everyone.

Todd
he said in the other thread you would get the highest points finish between these two races... but if you were booted today and can't make it tommorow that does suck

Skeen
11-18-2008, 10:45 PM
Remember that you have 5 race drops. Not the end of the world.

tifosi
11-19-2008, 06:57 AM
I'd rather see those who were able to race receive the points as normal but only counting the number that were actually allowed to race. Not fair that they get points for "beating" those who couldn't race.
Those who were booted should receive 10 points each. Not fair that they put in the effort practicing etc and weren't able to race. Also not fair that they could show up tonite and beat others who will get last nights point for a worse position.
Those who raced and received less than 10 points last night at least got to race. They can use RAtl as a drop race if they wish.

Stack
11-19-2008, 06:58 AM
Remember that you have 5 race drops. Not the end of the world.

You guys do what you want ...

I know this is for fun and all, but it doesn't seem fair to those of us that can't make it tonight... especially if you DO end up with 20+ cars starting tonight. That will give anyone who DID race last night, and can race again tonight, a chance to get higher points. Which doubly sucks for those of us that did race, and finished well, because the points gained last night won't be as "valuable" because it most likely will have been a smaller starting field.

And did we not have 13-15 cars start? That's more than half the field (the 29 cars on the "grid" was not accurate because of the doubles.) The last legit car count I saw was 23 right before the change over to the race. It shouldn't be hard to determine who in fact started the race to determine place values from last night.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Stack
11-19-2008, 07:02 AM
I think tonight would be better served to figure out what went wrong last night. Nulify last night's race, and add it on the end of the season, OR use Road Atlanta to replace one of the races you guys were talking about dropping.

that way we'd all have a fair shot at making the race up.

Bob McCown
11-19-2008, 07:10 AM
I sort of agree with Stack. I'm not in any points contention, so racing tonight doesnt matter to me one way or the other, but how about we run a few 2-3 lap sprints with 20+ cars (if we can) to see what kind of issues there are?

Lemming
11-19-2008, 07:17 AM
Not sure that I can make the race tonight, have to work late :(

Stack
11-19-2008, 07:20 AM
I'm torn really... on one hand, I think we can ALL agree that last nights race was an electronic orgy of fuck-up. So even though I finished a hard fought 2nd, I would not be upset to simply drop it in favor of making up the race at a later date.

On the other hand... I finished a hard fought 2nd and can use those 2nd place points, even if they are lessened by an accurate start count.

But again, my preference, and I think it's the fairest of them all, would be to nullify last night's race, even if it's a forced drop for everyone, and re-run it at a later date so we all have a fighting chance to be there. Less than 24hr notice won't work for a few of us, and IMHO, that's enough to make it unfair.

Doug Carter
11-19-2008, 07:58 AM
Yeah, drop the race or move it to the end of the season. Figure out the problems before the next one. This league has SO much potential with the competition and car count we have. It would be a shame to throw it away because of electronic snafus.

Keith, Stack and I were gridded up front at the start after Keith qualified 10th and I qualified 14th. I'm guessing Stack didn't belong up there with us, either. The warm up lap was a mess, cars were passing up grid spots left and right, and it really wasn't fair for random guys to just get booted for no obvious reason.

Maybe have to qualify to get into a 20-car field if nothing else can be done about bandwidth? Have everyone en masse reduce graphics and upload/download speeds?


I'm not saying that just because I sucked last night, either. :miffed: :D

Bob McCown
11-19-2008, 08:01 AM
How about this? Can we have, say, one or two 'mandatory' practices, where we get the car count near what it's supposed to be for the race? Generally I race by myself during the day, but sometimes when Ive been on at night, there are only 5 or so other cars. That's not stressing the server the same as 20+.

Or should as many of us agree to be on tonight and put up with getting booted a few times so Keith can figure it out?

Lemming
11-19-2008, 08:15 AM
I'm not going to be in the hunt for year end awards so what ever is decided will not keep me from continuing to race. However, I do think that last nights race should be dropped and not rerun for points tonight (even though I MIGHT be able to make it, it's not fair for those who cannot).

Mad Mike
11-19-2008, 08:22 AM
Since I get to steward rounds of the Rally America national championship each year I have dealt with similar situations at stage rally events. Had something like what we experienced last night happened at a rally (although a flash flood OR some such would be a more likely culprit) the results would stand thanks to the doctrine of force majeure. Basically, force majeure says that we can't change the results when things outside the control of the organizer impact the competition. It's a nice secular way to say, "acts of (your favorite) God(s)."

That said, our TP rFactor league is for fun so I'd be all for avoiding that force majeure hard line. Since I'm also a competitor (as of Road Atlanta qualifying anyway) I hate to lose that round or have any results I record tonight taint (good or bad) the series result I craft this season. So I have a few mostly philosophical thoughts on what we have now and where we might go from here.

So far as last night's results are concerned I think they are already tainted since an unknown number of lappers were taken out of the mix. Who knows how that might have impacted the results? As has been mentioned, it's unfair to reschedule 24-hours after the fact when some may have finagled a tight real-life schedule to race at the prescribed time. So far as I'm concerned there are way too many variables to let either, or both, results stand.

We should definitely race again to make sure we have no recurrence of the hiccup that got us last night. And not just Road Atlanta - until the cause can be isolated (if it can be) we should probably test some other circuits (presuming the ApexSpeed server folks can commit the time and other resources necessary to do something like that).

As far as points are concerned, I see the options offered so far all have good and bad points but I prefer the 'reschedule the race for the end of the season' best. There is one more option to consider - race tonight, handle the points as mentioned but let those points count as nothing more than a tie-breaker.

Either way, let's get back to it. Last night was the worst case of 'racing blue balls' I've had since I rattled the crankshaft out of my ITB BMW during the first session at Heartland Park Topeka a week after I had cleanly passed Chris Albin at Hallett, raced with him for a few laps but finally succumbed. (Hey, it was his narrowest margin of victory that season!)

So let's DO IT!

Warpedcow
11-19-2008, 08:41 AM
Here's an idea... hold the race again tonight. For people who run both races, take their better final "race time" to determine overall finishing position, rather than just giving them points for their best finishing position.

Mad Mike
11-19-2008, 08:52 AM
Here's an idea... hold the race again tonight. For people who run both races, take their better final "race time" to determine overall finishing position, rather than just giving them points for their best finishing position.


That would be my least favorite option. I'd rather see force majeure invoked since EVERYONE would be hammering to log lap times every lap tonight, thereby hosing anyone who chose a late race cruise mode to avoid throwing away an acceptable finish by taking unnecessary risks.

Lemming
11-19-2008, 08:57 AM
Here's an idea... hold the race again tonight. For people who run both races, take their better final "race time" to determine overall finishing position, rather than just giving them points for their best finishing position.

Doesn't work for anyone who was booted last night and can't make it tonight.

Bob McCown
11-19-2008, 09:02 AM
How about taking the HotLap times for anyone that DIDN'T get to race last night as their finishing time, intersperse that into the race results, and award points that way?

jstecher
11-19-2008, 09:07 AM
So here is the final decision. No bitching from here on out. God of the intraweb has now spoken.

Yesterday race will count for points but it will only count for points based on the cars that started (12-13 depending on what the final stats show) so this effectively gives everyone their rightful points for racing hard last night against the competition they had running with them. The race from Road Atlanta will be repeated officially for the week that Gateway is on the schedule now. Thus we will hold a vote to pick the single track replacing Montreal here starting later this week based on everyone's inputs in the other thread.

However tonight we will hold a race from Road Atlanta to test out some new settings that Keith has uncovered to try and ensure that we have fixed our problems. I REALLY need everyone to show up. We'll run some short sprint races 5-10 laps just to test out settings but what you'll get out of it is some practice on starts and racing in general. Please show up if you at all can at 8pm CST to race. We really need to have the 20+ cars we had on last night here again to ensure we have the problems nipped.

If the problems repeat we will look into alternatives. This is the best sim racing league I have ever personally seen so I want to ensure you that Keith and I will do everything we can to make sure everyone can race. I am looking into a dedicated rFactor server in a data center somewhere but that drives dollars into the equation versus the free setup that Keith thanklessly maintains for us now. If moving to a dedicated hosting provider connected to a internet backbone somewhere is what we need to do to race I am happy to put up cash to make it happen.

Once again guys really sorry about last night and I hope to see everyone tonight at 8 so we can kill these problems once and for all and have a flawless rest of the reason.

Bob McCown
11-19-2008, 09:09 AM
So let it be written, so let it be done. :clap:

See all y'all tonight!

Bob McCown
11-19-2008, 09:14 AM
Just a thought. Does the server need more RAM? Should we have a "Buy Keith more RAM" fund? I'd Paypal some $ to help solve it.

Warpedcow
11-19-2008, 09:27 AM
Yesterday race will count for points but it will only count for points based on the cars that started

So I can assume all future race points will be based on the number who start the race, and not the number who qualify?

My replay shows 13 cars drive the formation lap and start the race.

Mike_B
11-19-2008, 09:34 AM
Why not leave last night's race stand for those who weren't kicked. For those of us who were kicked, let us do the race at the end of the season; ONLY for those of us who were kicked last night. Take the higher driver count from the two sessions and score points based on that. So if 10 of us where kicked and 13 ran last night, score the make up race as if there were 13 cars.

Lemming
11-19-2008, 09:44 AM
So here is the final decision. No bitching from here on out. God of the intraweb has now spoken.


Nothing here to see, please move on :bow: ;)

Grintch
11-19-2008, 09:46 AM
Can we skip the warmup and formation laps? They seem just a waste of time. It seems the most dangerous times for getting booted/loosing connection are between sessions, so dropping these two sessions should help the odds.

In theory, the formation lap could result in detecting if a problem took out several players, but as it didn't last night what is it good for?

Also can we boost the number of allowed players in the server? I had time to rejoin I think, but couldn't get back in because the server was "full" (not really full, but it didn't register that half the field was gone until after the race started).

tifosi
11-19-2008, 09:50 AM
It's really too bad that the race wasn't stopped when the foul up occurred. We'd all have had another chance and we'd probably already know if it was a one off problem.

Mad Mike
11-19-2008, 10:05 AM
It's really too bad that the race wasn't stopped when the foul up occurred. We'd all have had another chance and we'd probably already know if it was a one off problem.

That's the kinds of decisions stewards are in place to make at real races but tough to recognize and/or react to when everyone involved is racing ...

There are a core group of folks who are making this competition possible so I'm good going with whatever they choose to do. Hell, a worst case scenario would find me out the $40 I spent for rFactor but since I found and downloaded Historic Rally Cars and a Pikes Peak add-on (which covers the era I was a "works" Crew Chief there) that's not an issue now!

Again - MANY thanks for all the work everyone is doing behind the scenes so we can race. Organizers ROCK!

HawkBat
11-19-2008, 11:32 AM
I will do my best to make it to tonight's test.

f2000keith
11-19-2008, 11:37 AM
It's really too bad that the race wasn't stopped when the foul up occurred. We'd all have had another chance and we'd probably already know if it was a one off problem.

I agree. The problem was that I wasn't able to know who was on the server and who was not. Everyone's name was on the grid list but I was not able to tell who actually got booted until we started to make laps and saw people go laps down. I could've restarted the race weekend, but that would've caused everyont to requalify as well... Next time I'll just kick everyone and restart the server.

tifosi
11-19-2008, 11:56 AM
Any idea why some cars were shown as booted and as making laps? I think that's why it kept some of us early bootees from getting back in. I saw the warmup clock go to zero and wham I was toast.

HawkBat
11-19-2008, 12:41 PM
Maybe I can dust off my T&S skills and write down the order of cars just in case something like this happens again.

f2000keith
11-19-2008, 01:01 PM
Any idea why some cars were shown as booted and as making laps? I think that's why it kept some of us early bootees from getting back in. I saw the warmup clock go to zero and wham I was toast.


For whatever reason people were booted, they may not have been let back into the server because I have the driver limit capped at 27 and when people had their ghost user still in the server. I have the driver limit capped to ensure there is enough bandwidth allocated for each driver. No way to tell what will work until we have 20+ drivers online to tell the story...

Warpedcow
11-19-2008, 02:26 PM
It's really too bad that the race wasn't stopped when the foul up occurred. We'd all have had another chance and we'd probably already know if it was a one off problem.

Unfortunately, restarting the race like that throws out all the qualifying results too, so it would take lots of time to really restart everything. Some folks probably have other commitments after races (they're usually done well before 9:30PM Central), and this would run in to that issue...

The way I see it, think of half the grid having catasrophic engine failures on the way from pits to grid... in real life, you'd never get a "do over". ;)

tifosi
11-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Caleb & I will be there for the test because we really just want to race. We appreciate what others have done to get this going so let's go racin'. :cheers:

PS Today is his birthday so give him a greeting OK? :cheers: :cheers:

HawkBat
11-19-2008, 05:10 PM
Yep I just want to race also. And happy BDay to Caleb.

PaulL
11-19-2008, 05:38 PM
Good call on the rerun rules, John.
I got booted last night, but will get on tonight to help with debugging.

The more I though about it ... it's not a garage problem ... that would have shown up during qualy as well.

A couple things I DID notice before I got booted, though ...
I ran until qualy ended, and when I went back to the garage I didn't see anyone's qualy time.
It listed me in about 14th or something for warmups, but I couldn't review anyone's qualy times. Maybe that's because warmups had already started.

The booting occured EXACTLY as warmups ended as it was going to race mode.

If it's possible to skip warmups ... I suggest doing that.
One less 'flip' for the program to have to go through.

I had a 'connection lost' message in the chat window.

So, it could have been just a fluke.
I've seen that not all starts are bulletproof, so it could have been just a glitch.

Tonight, if we get problems, you might try different start styles .. just standing .vs. standing/formation for instance.
That may help.

Matt Newcombe
11-19-2008, 09:38 PM
Really sorry about that pass on the last turn Paul - I shouldn't have logged in tonight. Lack of sleep caught up with me and for some strange reason I thought I could make the pass stick.

Mike_B
11-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm having driver issues today with my network card (didn't have problems yesterday). I disco'd on the lap after Skeen passed me. Hopefully, I have it fixed now.

PaulL
11-19-2008, 09:44 PM
I thought it was a good pass ... I thought you DID make it stick ... but then I saw you off in T1 later.

You got on the inside of me at just the right spot ... it was a clean move. I didn't dare come over to the right to defend, 'cause then I would have had to slow down for the corner.

I don't know how you got more speed on the long straight, though.

Matt Newcombe
11-20-2008, 12:57 AM
Lol my bad then; clearly I'm losing it. I had more offs in 4 laps then I did in a week of hotlaps driving. Generally I won't try to pass until I'm 90% sure I can get by, so I guess I thought it to be a good idea at the time.

Lemming
11-20-2008, 09:54 AM
Well, how did the test go?

f2000keith
11-20-2008, 09:57 AM
Not enough people to really strain the server... John said he did get kicked before the last race when I added 10 AI. We won't really know if people will get booted or not until Tuesday. If half the people get booted like last time we'll have to rethink if we want the top 20 to qualify for a race or something.

jstecher
11-20-2008, 10:30 AM
Thanks for those that did show up last night to test out the game. I think we made improvements in lag (once again thats still mainly dependent on peoples individual connections) but we'll see on next Tuesday. Eastern Creek is an excellent track and top notch developed so I am also curious to see if this was a track issue as well since we were running the beta of RA.

We'll see what happens and once again I appreciate everyone's helpful attitude with trying to work through the little glitches we hit.

Mike_B
11-20-2008, 06:47 PM
(once again thats still mainly dependent on peoples individual connections)

Can you offer suggestions about things to do locally to improve our connections? For example, disable your anti-virus.

Bob McCown
11-20-2008, 06:50 PM
Disable AV, and if you run Outlook or Thunderbird, disable that as well. "You've got mail!" in the middle of a fight for last place is annoying.

jstecher
11-20-2008, 07:21 PM
Locally everyone for the race should disable AV, firewalls, and any program that runs in the background doing some sort of resource intensive scanning.

Outside of that make sure that you have the program set to 64k/64k up and down to minimize the payload of the information bouncing around between you and the server.