Thunderbolt circuit discussion

[PAracer]

I believe a few of us have visited and driven the track at this point. What toughts, tips, ideas do we have to share?

First off. The track's food concessions are overpriced, and the quality isn't up to par. The $3.00 ice-cream sandwich is the best deal. VIR, the sister track, is much better.

The corner workers need to improve their skills. I'm sure this is just something that will take a bit of time since they truely are new to the job. Be aware that the guy on the back straight may be staring in awe at the cloud of dust that you are about to drive through

The track itself is great!

T1 is a fast right to an uphill short chute. T2 is another right over a crest (dare yourself to stay off the brake). T3 is yet another fast right. You will likely need to lift a bit to make the turn. This one leads onto the backstretch which features a hump in the middle. Most cars will get real light and possibly a bit of wheel spin for the more powerful ones.

The second half of the track runs a bit like the first half of VIR. There are a couple slow turns, but you will still see some good speed. This part of the track will spark some good depate regarding the proper/fastest line. There is truely more than one way to skin a cat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI4og-8bJMc

I can't wait to go back. Tune in to Speed this Sunday to watch the Grand Am race from this very track.:rockon:

[steveh]

I attended the NASA event on August 5, and made the following notes posted on a couple other forums. These are seat-of-the-pants impressions, comparing some of the turns to other tracks, but without traqmate, timer or video. My car was a '92 E36 BMW with M3 suspension on street tires:

Note: the track was run for this event without the optional chicanes, so some of the later turn numbers may be a little off.

Turn 1 -- very fast, slightly increasing radius right-hander. The challenge was to not over-brake at the end of the long front straight, as you could carry a fair amount of speed through here.

Turn 2 -- reminded me of turn 11 at Mid-Ohio -- uphill right-hander, clear apex, blind, over-the-hill track out. But it's a slightly increasing radius, so you can floor it as long as you're dialed out of most of the steering by the time you crest the hill. Less "air" potential than the crest of the uphill at LRP.

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

Turn 4 -- another fast right hander. You need some brake, as you're cooking from the prior turn and a decent straight and you need to sacrifice the turn a little and go a little late-apex, because you have to "pinch" the track out to mid-track, as there's a sharp left coming up, and not quite enough room to track out full left and come back. First couple of laps, I downshifted here; later realized it made for a smoother brake/turn/gas to stay in 4th.

Turn 5 -- Late apex, hard left-hander. Seemed tighter than the map would suggest. To me, one of the hardest turns on the course, because there's a pretty long straight right after. Kind of felt like turn 5 at Summit Main (but no bumps).

Turn 6 -- 90 degree right-hander, pretty fast. Reminds me of turn 10 at Summit Main.

Turn 7 (8, 9) -- the "octopus". Opinions will vary, but I took this as a 3-apex complex. First "turn" is a standard 90 degree right, with a full track-out that sets you up for a second "turn" and more or less straight shot clipping the 2nd apex at the center of the bulb, then hard brake in a straight line to a sharp right -- similar feel to the way a lot of guys take turn 11 into the Oak Tree at VIR, except, like the end of the carousel at S.P., at track-out you have to stay mid-track or track right to make the next (left) turn.

Turn 10 -- another carousel-like turn, a left-hander. Need a little breathe of the throttle at the end to rotate to hit the late apex and set up the S's. Kind of like the "keyhole" at Shenandoah, but without the elevation change.

Turns 11, 12 -- very fast S's. Depending on where you are at track out from the previous turn, you can take these almost straight, WOT. The curbs are well-placed, and pretty forgiving.

Turn 14 -- very fast right-hander onto the front straight. There is a slightly raised concrete berm that separates the hot track from pit-in. If you're not too tightly sprung, it's a turning surface. I put both right wheels on it to straighten out the turn a little, and did not find it upset the car at all. Somebody in another group hit it hard, panicked, lifted, and spun here (and managed to hit the wall), so if you commit to it, you have to ride it out.

All in all, a fast track with some technical parts. I didn't feel even marginally smooth until the last run, and I'm sure I left many seconds (minutes?) on the table for the next time. :cheers:

[PAracer]

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

We had a red Subaru try the same thing, except not so lucky. He put two tires off on the outside of the turn, hooked right, spun, and pancaked the driver's side into the inside guardrail. Still turned a putrid shade of brown.

I think the dust clouds are going to be a constant through the years given the soil conditions of South Jersey.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of run off. This faciliy was built with club events in mind.

[ProCoach]

I attended the NASA event on August 5, and made the following notes posted on a couple other forums. These are seat-of-the-pants impressions, comparing some of the turns to other tracks, but without traqmate, timer or video. My car was a '92 E36 BMW with M3 suspension on street tires:

Note: the track was run for this event without the optional chicanes, so some of the later turn numbers may be a little off.

Turn 1 -- very fast, slightly increasing radius right-hander. The challenge was to not over-brake at the end of the long front straight, as you could carry a fair amount of speed through here.

Turn 2 -- reminded me of turn 11 at Mid-Ohio -- uphill right-hander, clear apex, blind, over-the-hill track out. But it's a slightly increasing radius, so you can floor it as long as you're dialed out of most of the steering by the time you crest the hill. Less "air" potential than the crest of the uphill at LRP.

Turn 3 -- VERY fast right-hand sweeper, flat out in 4th gear, a little pucker as you realize that it's a slight decreasing radius (lots of puffs of dust as people realized there was a little less track out than they thought). I found I could 4-wheel power drift through here, and never left the asphalt. A black GT3 took an excursion at track out and ended up safe, but very brown, inside of a monster dust cloud.

Turn 4 -- another fast right hander. You need some brake, as you're cooking from the prior turn and a decent straight and you need to sacrifice the turn a little and go a little late-apex, because you have to "pinch" the track out to mid-track, as there's a sharp left coming up, and not quite enough room to track out full left and come back. First couple of laps, I downshifted here; later realized it made for a smoother brake/turn/gas to stay in 4th.

Turn 5 -- Late apex, hard left-hander. Seemed tighter than the map would suggest. To me, one of the hardest turns on the course, because there's a pretty long straight right after. Kind of felt like turn 5 at Summit Main (but no bumps).

Turn 6 -- 90 degree right-hander, pretty fast. Reminds me of turn 10 at Summit Main.

Turn 7 (8, 9) -- the "octopus". Opinions will vary, but I took this as a 3-apex complex. First "turn" is a standard 90 degree right, with a full track-out that sets you up for a second "turn" and more or less straight shot clipping the 2nd apex at the center of the bulb, then hard brake in a straight line to a sharp right -- similar feel to the way a lot of guys take turn 11 into the Oak Tree at VIR, except, like the end of the carousel at S.P., at track-out you have to stay mid-track or track right to make the next (left) turn.

Turn 10 -- another carousel-like turn, a left-hander. Need a little breathe of the throttle at the end to rotate to hit the late apex and set up the S's. Kind of like the "keyhole" at Shenandoah, but without the elevation change.

Turns 11, 12 -- very fast S's. Depending on where you are at track out from the previous turn, you can take these almost straight, WOT. The curbs are well-placed, and pretty forgiving.

Turn 14 -- very fast right-hander onto the front straight. There is a slightly raised concrete berm that separates the hot track from pit-in. If you're not too tightly sprung, it's a turning surface. I put both right wheels on it to straighten out the turn a little, and did not find it upset the car at all. Somebody in another group hit it hard, panicked, lifted, and spun here (and managed to hit the wall), so if you commit to it, you have to ride it out.

All in all, a fast track with some technical parts. I didn't feel even marginally smooth until the last run, and I'm sure I left many seconds (minutes?) on the table for the next time. :cheers:

Your turn numbers are correct and your assessment of the Octopus is correct (3-apex). I don't believe T3 is flat in most cars quicker than a Miata, though.

Nice write-up. Good job deciphering the course.

-Peter (responsible for the curb placement everywhere except T14...)

[steveh]

Thanks Peter! :cheers:

I've generally driven relatively low-HP cars on track (Porsche 951, Miata, E36 BMW), so I can see where more ponies would require judicious throttle through T3. I was surprised at how fast it was -- keeping with the "what's it like?" theme, it felt a lot like T4 at Summit Main, where I can keep the hammer down in the Miata, but a lot of guys with more HP have to breathe throttle, and maybe brakes, to make it.

The rear-engine guys (911's) seem to think that the octopus is more a "hug the inside curb" turn. Is this one of the (rare) instances where your car setup might affect the ideal line?

Even though you didn't do it, do you know what's with the curbing at T14? I've never seen that before -- usually, it's a painted line or a "hard" curb (like T1 at Mid-O). I've already seen a lot of different opinions on how many wheels, if any, to allow up on that curbing, and poor judgment on that turn can (has already) result in a bad outcome.

[PAracer]

Very true. T3 requires a breathe of the throttle to make it through. We had a Subaru that went wide, hooked, then ended up in the inside guard rail. Since T2 is kinda blind, you can easily end up carrying more speed int 3 than you thought possible

The octopus really does inspire a great deal of opinions. I started by taking the first apex as a normal turn, then hugging the outside. Approaching the next turn in from the extreem left side and turning in an holding the right side after apex.
On sunday I began doing what the instructors were trying. The first apex is like a typical turn (apex just after halfway and track out to the left edge). There was a second apex that aimed the car at the beginning of the inside curb. Then I would work toward the outside (halfway out or so) and pitch the car to the inside curb to make an entrance for the never ending left.
The key is to get as much wide open throttle as possible between apexes and approach the final left hand corner in such a way that you can maintain momentum and enter the run onto the front stretch with the most speed.

[kishg]

good analysis steveh. t3 can be taken flat in an e30 and probably a miata. i did see quite the e46m3s brushing the brakes there though.. last time i was here i was triple-apexing the octopus but this time i tried staying outside more and trail braking into the last apex.. seems to rotate the car better. definitely a lot to learn in those sections of the track. lots of fun. definitely waiting to go back.

[steveh]

I actually drove my mostly stock E36 325i at that event (Miata was between engines at the time). With minimal engine mods and a near-M3 suspension, I could pretty well stay in the gas through T3, but it was close. There was a spec Miata in my group that was pretty fast and seemed to be WOT through T3. I think I remember you being pretty fast on that track too (momentum cars rule :rockon:).

I'm going back with Chin Motorsports in October. Can't wait to try it again with the Miata.

[kishg]

I actually drove my mostly stock E36 325i at that event (Miata was between engines at the time). With minimal engine mods and a near-M3 suspension, I could pretty well stay in the gas through T3, but it was close. There was a spec Miata in my group that was pretty fast and seemed to be WOT through T3. I think I remember you being pretty fast on that track too (momentum cars rule :rockon:).

I'm going back with Chin Motorsports in October. Can't wait to try it again with the Miata.

hmmmm chin in october... your giving me ideas that by wallet doesn't like :)

[1LapSRT]

Thanks for all the analysis guys... I will be running a Redline TA event there this weekend and needed a place to start my training before I get there. :clap:

[ProCoach]

The key is to get as much wide open throttle as possible between apexes

+1. Outside of the end of the Octopus may work, but trailbraking into T9 to help rotate the car and end up right side parallel with the right side of the track (the straight is the apex) is key. You should be going through the sweep that is T8 so fast that slowing for T9 is a problem... :D I use the tower as a visual...

[1LapSRT]

Anyone have a source for a GOOD track map (prefferably with turn #'s)? :confused:

Thanks!

[ProCoach]

Simple map with numbers (bike course numbers on the inside)

Have a huge CAD file that I'll post a link to as soon as I can find it.

[PAracer]

That's a pretty good map, but there are a few differences compared to reality. The track map in the classrom is incorrect, too.
T2 I'm still drawing a blank. Do I need to brake, do I just lift. All I see is sky and the occational plane taking off. Neither one makes a good reference.
T5 is much tighter(think T4 at VIR). Try both an early and late turn in.
T6 is not quite so tight. It's faster than you might think.
There is no kink between 6 and 7. The map in the classroom is wrong. Last minute design change
After T10, there is an S-turn, but it's very similar to T6 at VIR. Not a passing opportunity, but still should be wide open throttle.

You really want to set up the car to turn right. You do want to be able to rotate the car for T5 (left hander). T10 should be okay as long as you can protect your position since it is tough to pass before the bridge.

We are all pioneers at this facility. Feel free to try something new.

[ProCoach]

Here's the CAD from the track paving for the outside edges...

[PAracer]

Here's the CAD from the track paving for the outside edges...

much better.:clap:

[Car54]

Great map!

Here's some vid of Thunderbolt
http://www.vimeo.com/1604036

Kish...PCA is hosting an event at Thunderbolt Oct 11-12 for $300!!! They only had room in the advanced group....sign up at Clubregistration.net

[kishg]

Great map!

Here's some vid of Thunderbolt
http://www.vimeo.com/1604036

Kish...PCA is hosting an event at Thunderbolt Oct 11-12 for $300!!! They only had room in the advanced group....sign up at Clubregistration.net

craig,

that's a smoking deal. wish i could go but i'll be at pocono with delval that weekend. you going?

-kish