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View Full Version : Safety -vs- Publicity


gangstafoot
08-10-2007, 07:55 PM
I had a bad experience at the Summit Point Redline event last year. I left feeling lucky to have survived the "HPDE" on a Saturday. I have not seen anything from Redline to have convinced me things have changed but I open this thread as an opportunity.

From the drivers meeting onward, my skepticism grew. There were not enough instructors on hand for the paying students; several absolute first timers. The classroom instructor could not fathom turning his printed track map (same one the drivers were given) upside down to match the track map drawn on the classroom whiteboard. He persevered explaining the passing zones using the printed sheet. Flags were covered... though the workers in the corners hardly used them or used them in error.

I took to the course solo after a session as a passenger in a friend of a friend's car. Again, there was no instructor for me so I took to the course chanting my track rules, looking for the corner stations, verbalizing to myself where I was and whether passing was allowed. If I didn't make myself safe near traffic, I could become a hazard...

Others were not so discliplined. Trying to respect the awareness of the driver ahead, I found myself waiting for pointbys in some passing zones. Other drivers were not as polite and put both their AND MY car at risk taking uninvited passes ON LINE. I hot pitted to cite these cars and saw no discipline from the course marshalls. I was shown a blue flag with no one behind. I was shown a black flag and came in only to be asked what I was stopping in the pit for.

At the noon break, I found the classroom instructor already engaged with other drivers equally frustrated with the growing chaos on track. Diplomatically, he agreed to call all drivers back in for a second classroom meeting. During that chat we agreed, democratically, that no passing would be allowed without invitation by any car ahead wearing 'rookie stripes' on the rear window. Any driver feeling he/she was held up would be welcome to stop their car and complain... not the other way around.

If I recall correctly, I nearly ran out of tape in my paddock box as so many drivers chose the rookies stripes for the next session.

I used my own experience to let slower traffic run far away from me rather than press in for pointbys. I made clear track for myself and continued to watch the warm bodies numbly flagging the track for me.

I approached a blind hairpin turn over the crest of a hill at the top of a quick sequence of esses... and found an S2000 and and Impala SS stopped sideways, ON TRACK, and the flagger watching to see if I'd hit them. No yellow flag. No nothing.

My brakes and quick hands kept me from hitting them, but I had time enough to scream through my open passenger window at the flagger to, "wave a fucking yellow, asshole!"

Of course, I should have expected as much from an event that did not require ANY of us to prove that our cars were track worthy. No tech inspection was required before nor at the event. For all I know, one of those cars pissed itself and took out the other.

But the pictures were pretty. I think there were magazine photographers and plenty of $7 plaques handed out the next day.


If things at Redline haven't changed, I'm sorry to see it and I feel obliged to let the Trackpedia community in on the truth. If otherwise, I'd like some real examples to convince me (or others) I should drive with you again.

Stack
08-11-2007, 07:58 AM
I know we've had this discussion in private, and I applaud you for bringing it out in the open. Sounds like you made the best out of a bad situation.

I've said this before many times, I feel like the organization running an event has a HUGE responsibility (if not an obligation) to maintain an atmosphere of comfort, and a HIGH minimum safety standard for its participants. Waivers will protect a club only to a certain degree.

What you describe here sounds like gross negligence, and it would be very easy for even a mediocre lawyer to have a field day!

JimLill
08-11-2007, 08:41 AM
Kudos for speaking up on such an important situation.

I would not go to any DE event without knowing the Chief Instructor's Credentials and Record. Everything is in his hands unless there also have a Chief Steward.

Tony Funicello of Trackmasters is A1 in my book.

Nikolas@Redline
08-11-2007, 10:25 AM
gangstafoot,

I believe we have had this discussion once before. A bit curious as to why you believe it was necessary to bring it up again. But, nevertheless.... :-)

This year at Summit Point, we have hired the professionals over at "Get Fast"

http://www.get-fast.net/main.html

They will be leading our formal instruction activities at this year's Summit Point event. All "first timers" are required to take the class with Get Fast.

We have addressed the situation with the flagging crew from last year and have made the facility management aware of it (they were THEIR flaggers, not ours). Any more of that nonsense with the flaggers will be taken care of immediately. However, for us to take care of it, we need to be made aware of the problems, and I know for a FACT that I personally was never made aware of the numerous problems with the flaggers. I cannot speak for the other Redline staff who were there who may not have taken care of it as quickly as I would have.

Vehicles will be teched prior to being allowed on track. Last year we were severely understaffed, this year, that will not be a problem.

We've realized that our east coast events require a bit of a different approach compared to the events we organize in other parts of the country. We believe we have taken the steps necessary to make everyone more comfortable at our Summit Point event this year. For those of you who attended last year, you will see the changes at this year's event as we strive to make your experience more pleasurable.

jstecher
08-11-2007, 03:39 PM
Nikolas I think its great that your taking action here and continuing to provide a high quality environment for your events. As always I know that its hard to keep everyone happy but if your addressing issues and working to make each and every event better I think that is excellent.

I am really sorry to hear that a lot of the issues seemed to stem from folks the track provided which is a message I have heard echoed from other event organizers as well using Summit Point.

Thanks for the good exchange of info guys.

jamesb
08-13-2007, 10:44 AM
Nicolas he brings it up because up untill now there has been little discussion on what your plans where this time around to address last years issues.

I am happy to see who you have joined with for this years event. I have instructed for the get fast crew and I was very happy with how they ran the weekends event and how they listened to feedback and constructive critisisms from drivers and instructors.

I hope that this years event will be even better for you with their guidance.

Nikolas@Redline
08-13-2007, 08:05 PM
James,

I agree there hasnt been much discussion on those aspects of this year's event.

We dealt with the situation last year in the weeks following the event after posts were made on internet message boards. We said what we would do this year and now we are acting on those promises. However, instead of posting that he had already spoken with us about the issues he had with the event, and that we had come to an understanding, he pretty much copy and pasted his post from 13 months ago, into these forums.

I believe it potentially misled uninformed individuals as though we had not addressed the issues and were not taking steps to improve our events and maintain our status as a leading track event organizer here in the United States.

Why he took this particular approach is beyond my wisdom. I could think of a dozen better ways for him to have brought these topics up than the one he chose to use.

gangstafoot
08-18-2007, 08:54 PM
James hit the nail on the head. While we did discuss last year's event on another forum, I was not left with the sensation that anything was changing. I've grown to care for this community and if it was going to happen again, it wasn't going to go down with me remaining quiet... even if it's been a year. I did open my remarks as an opportunity to change my mind not as an attempt to mislead anyone.

Hiring GetFast is exactly the kind of news that changes my mind. I've driven with the guys there under the former NorEast R32 Club banner and look forward to driving with them under TrackDaze... and Redline. Jon Felton is a new acquaintance at GetFast and he has a no nonsense, safety first conscience that immediately puts drivers at ease from the morning all hands on through each session. His group brings a depth of experience that I may have been spoiled to now expect from my track days and Redline will definitely benefit from the association.

Peace?

kbrew8991
08-18-2007, 09:16 PM
Felton ain't afraid to crack a whip in the name of saftey, thats for sure

getfast
08-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Felton ain't afraid to crack a whip in the name of saftey, thats for sure

With guys like you around, Ken... who can blame me? :D ;)

Seriously, it is an honor for Get Fast to help with the Redline event on Shenandoah this year. We will be providing mandatory classroom sessions and mandatory in-car instruction (via our regular instructor buddies of course) for novices on Saturday. However we will not be providing Control, T&S, Announcing, Drivers Meetings, or any of the other usual tasks we provide for groups like TrackDaze. We will specifically be focused on making sure the Redline novices have a safe experience.

Looking forward to it,

Jon

Stack
08-19-2007, 12:56 PM
With guys like you around, Ken... who can blame me? :D ;)


Oh... SNAP!!

Sounds like something I'd say! :lol:

trackaddict
08-19-2007, 01:33 PM
I was looking at the Redline Time Attack at Atlanta Motor Speedway (this year) and after reading the ads and the website, I decided this was not an event for me. What made me feel that way was that it sounded like an open invitation for anyone to get into a group that allows open passing and a spirit of competition. Here is a quote from the home page:
"... anyone and any car can compete, regardless of skill level or car setup...."

Having been through the HPDE ranks at NASA for the past 3 years and sampling other events with BMWCCA, Panoz, PBOC, and even being part of a private track rental, I felt uneasy about this group. Last I heard, the AMS event was cancelled.

I think it is a good idea that y'all have partnered with Get Fast to increase safety and comfort among us East Coasters who are not as comfy about Time Attacks as the West Coasters. I won't be signng up for this one as it is too far for me and my dance card is quite full for the rest of the year.

getfast
08-19-2007, 06:16 PM
I think it is a good idea that y'all have partnered with Get Fast to increase safety and comfort among us East Coasters who are not as comfy about Time Attacks as the West Coasters.

All we have been asked to provide is three novice classroom sessions and "1 session each" instruction on Saturday only. The Redline guys have everything else handled. :rockon:

Just clarifying,

Jon

jamesb
08-20-2007, 10:04 AM
John and I bet that Saturday will be much more organized compared to the feedback I recieved from last year it will be much appreciated.

Nikolas@Redline
09-11-2007, 11:01 AM
John and I bet that Saturday will be much more organized compared to the feedback I recieved from last year it will be much appreciated.

We've been promising that we would improve certain aspects of the event.... In three weeks we will finally have our chance to live up to our promises. :-)

getfast
01-18-2008, 09:02 AM
Just following up months later, from my perspective this event went great and the Redline guys were awesome to deal with. Get Fast can't wait to help out again (Aug 16-17, 2008.)

Relevant video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw4ft_NffLU

Jon

Nikolas@Redline
01-24-2008, 10:51 AM
Just following up months later, from my perspective this event went great and the Redline guys were awesome to deal with. Get Fast can't wait to help out again (Aug 16-17, 2008.)

Relevant video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw4ft_NffLU

Jon


Jon,

We may need to use you guys at the Nashville event. We should have plenty of "noobs" that will need your quality instruction! :-)

getfast
01-24-2008, 10:22 PM
Hmmmm... Nashville is Jul 26-27, correct? Wish we could, but we're working a huge NASA event at VIR that weekend, sorry.

Jon