Novice versus expert in the same car (ish)

[billy]

This thread is to compare Marks 2:48 against my 3:06 looking for where I gave up all the time. For this purpose, we're using a new lap file that uses much bigger segments. There are four segments. Here is the lap file and graphic showing the segments.

[billy]

So, comparing Marks versus me segment wise, we get this.

Mark takes 8.2 seconds between entering 14 and entering 3. This is basically exit speed from 14 and 3. Lets look at Marks line versus mine through 14.

What I do into 14 is exit well right out of 13 and then I head straight deep for the one braking flag before turning right for 14. Mark stays as left as he can out of 13 which lets him use a much bigger arc through 14 than I can given I'm not all the way over before turning right and this lets him carry a lot more speed through 14 and hence all the way down the main straight until 1.

[billy]

This image shows Canada (12) through 13 (blind left hander under the old bridge and 14, the right hander on to the main straight.

Mark is a lot wider through Canada than me and brings more speed up to the bridge and despite bringing more speed on 13 thabn me, takes a tighter line keeping him left setting up for 14. You can say here than Mark could take a wider line through 13 carrying more speed if he can make it across to the left before 14 but its a short shoot and maybe there just isn't time so he does 13 at this speed throwing it away for the much more important 14.

[billy]

T1 is where Mark looks very fast compared with everyone else. He's quicker than me obviously but Mike in the Exige also. Linewise, I'm ok here but just about 10-15mph too slow. Look at the speeds at geo apex. A big problem for me is I don't see to like getting over a G in lateral load although the car looks good for 1.2/1.25G. If I can get used to that then my cornering speeds will go way up. Mark takes 1 in 4th where as I take it in 3rd.

[JimLill]

Same car?? You need to swap cars amongst drivers to prove that I think.............

[billy]

T3, Mark enters without using all the track on the left side but still carries a bunch more speed than me through it. He uses more track on the way out which is hurting me also. I'm still stuck at my .85G limit for lateral G rather than using all that the car has.

Mark has around 3-4mph on me exiting 3 and carries than all the way to T5 which is a long way. This turns in to 7mph by T5.

[billy]

T5 sees Mark using all of the track on exiting 5 and he carries and extra 5mph roughly through T6 also. I'm not using all the tract at exit for T5 and entering T6.

[billy]

These two are interesting because besides my not realizing the car does 1.2G through turns, Mark doesn't seem to use all the track when exiting 7 and stays right. This would indicate Mark can carry more speed through 7 than he is right now. He's got about 10mph on me through this section and carries 10mph down to T8.

[billy]

Mark is all the way over on the right before entering T8 whereas I'm still in the middle of the track is looks like. We both use all the track on exit but because I'm over entering, I carry more G and a lower speed through it.

[billy]

Mark is like 10mph faster through here but uses a tighter line than me which suggests if he was wider he could carry even more speed through it. As usual, I'm in my 0.8G lateral G comfort zone. Exit wise, my line looks the same as Marks.

[billy]

I am using a later apex than Mark (pucker factor here) and am about 10mph slower, I'm 84, Mark is 94mph. He then carries this 10mph down the short straight to the kink.

[billy]

Here, I'm not using all the track on exit and Mark is carrying a whopping 15mph more than me through it. This is the most famous turn at the track. Faster F cars can do 130 through this turn on fresh tires.

[billy]

At braking for canada, Mark is around 13mph faster than me before braking due to the exit speed from the kink. Mark is on top of the outside rumble strips it looks like through this corner. I don't use all the corner on exit.

[billy]

Mark takes a pretty tight line through 13 but is still faster than me as I'm in my .8G comfort zone on lateral G. He's got 7mph on me through this section and it looks like if he took a wider line like mine, he may be able to carry more speed than he is through it.

[billy]

So,
The first segment from entering 14 to T3 is huge. Just two corners and thats 8 seconds right there. I need to get wider in to 14 and earlier apex 1 and stay in fourth.

Segment two costs me 4 seconds and thats basically exit speed from 3 to 5, single corner.

Segment three costs me 6 seconds and I just need to start cornering at 1+G to get there.

Segment four is under two seconds and thats all canada.

This is why I think the logger is really useful in lieu of having an instructor. Having the data from a better driver in the same car can help a lot. I'm looking forward to getting back there and hopefully getting well under 3:00 next time out.

[usa35]

Billy, I think you are missing one big issue with the tracks you are displaying - while you've hit another on the head.

Did you noticed how all of the pictures' grey tracks are about 50 scale (ft? looks about right for the scale) up on the white tracks?? I think you've got a GPS variance issue.

The thing you did hit on is the speed being carried through the turns. The lines aren't *that* different. You can work on that (it seems like you might square off the turns a bit much (like I do)). But, the speed carried is obviously massively different.

After watching enough guys do it (from their right seat) and trying it myself, it's pretty clear that most people (including me) don't slide the car around enough in a 944. You've got to drive it like a go-cart. The 944 likes slip angle.

Regardless, because of the data variance I think you've mis-read the data.

Work on your line, driving ability, and confidence. Get your corner-entry and mid-corner speeds (and line) up. Corner exit and the rest will follow.

[billy]

It's certainly possible, it's a little too consistent to be that though no? There is where video would be good also. We got video of Mark and Eric but none of me. Mark said from following me that line wise I looked ok, problem was mainly just cornering speeds. I need to get up in the 1+G range and get comfortable at that level rather than the 0.8Gish that I'm always at now.

This is actually where having an inside and outside line for the track would be great because the variance would be pretty obvious then also.

[billy]

I don't think its GPS error. I'm looking at the pit out section and everybody is exiting the pit area on to the track on more or less exactly the same line. So, the lines look good. I'm also comparing with Brett Baileys lap from lap year and it looks right. Here's a sample from that so you can see. The lines look very similar, both are racers.

[Skeen]

The data is awesome, no doubt about that, it's just translating what you learn here into results. For that, you're relying on yourself, which is tough because no one ever wants to leave their comfort zone.

[billy]

No argument that an instructor in the right hand seat is a big help. My next track day is with Donny brook on Monday at Brainerd so I'm planning on getting some time if possible with Gary Curtis including a logged session with him driving.

[mrepka]

Now that's useful data!

Well done, it's shows where we both can make improvements and that's what it is all about. You are correct though, video would be a huge help, how many of those differences in line are because we encountered traffic and were off the preferred line because of it? I certainly can't remember specifically where or on what lap. The GPS/MPH shows a dip in MPH around T4, after T6 and just exiting T10 but I have no clue if there were cars not.

Now that we have the data it's important that we bite off small chunks, next time out don't try and find 8 seconds on one lap, make note of RPM’s at the track out of each corner, go for a couple extra RPM's at a time. Pay extra attention to the line. Is the entire track being used? Am I being smooth with my inputs? Where am I picking up the throttle? Am I looking ahead or right in front of me? Take care of the fundamentals, and the lap times will come...

[billy]

Mark,
Coming out of five are you over the rumble strips? Also on canada? Trying to figure out whether the lines are comparible. I know I don't.

[usa35]

I would just find it hard to believe that your lines were consistently off only in one axis (essentially 'north/south' according to your track orientation) but similar in the other. And, the vertical tracks do 'weave' a bit along with the horizontal (seeming) misalignment.

The way those track look, you would have been on opposite sides of the track all the time while traveling east-west, but not north-south. Odd, no? :-)

Anyway - yeah, again - corner speed is clearly the big issue. The data is very revealing in that sense.

What was more revealing was having Bob Viau Jr. approaching from behind me into 3. He was 100 yards back, but by the time I was exiting the corner he was on top of me! down the straight after 3 he wasn't going that much faster (I had to lay off to let him by), so power wasn't his advantage... Dare I say it was raw cornering ability and talent? (Say it ain't so...)

-Mark (the other Mark)

[billy]

Yeah
It's hard to know. I think we had two loggers in Eric and MArks cars for the same session with video from Eric so that would clinch it either way.

Cornering ability seems to be everything, who has the right line and ability to carry the max speed through the turn.

[usa35]

BTW - I just pulled up my data from the G2X for RA, and it was *immensely* helpful to read through the posts, look at the images/data, and compare to my laps.

Driving a 944 S2 with 968 ClubSport suspension, I seem to fall somewhere between Billy and Mark. Clearly the car has a bit more power, but just looking at the corners, Mark was around 5mph faster than me, except for turn 5(??) where I was faster - but that is only looking at your one last post and only one of my laps. Mark's similar time overall can be attributed to his cornering ability, while my similar time was made up by a little extra HP. I could probably push the car harder - I rarely got over 1 lat G, whereas Mark was driving the SP1 consistently at or above that level of sideways force.

Thanks for the posts! This is the next best thing to side-by-side comparison! :-)

-Mark (again, the other Mark)

[kbrew8991]

The data is awesome, no doubt about that, it's just translating what you learn here into results. For that, you're relying on yourself, which is tough because no one ever wants to leave their comfort zone.
having someone in that other seat is useful for analyisis, as you both feel the same thing more or less

IMO, billy could be made faster with an instructor, not quite to the fine-tune-by-logger stage yet

Billy, keep those "notches" small, but you've got a car now that is dedicated to this... ;)

[billy]

Billy can be made faster :) The attachments are in the post and hopefully I can improve at BIR on Monday with an instructor.

[TailWagger]

While you're probably not gonna like what I'm about to say, know that I say it with the greatest respect.

There is a big difference between knowing you can go faster and knowing how to. IMO, it will take for-friggin-ever, if ever, to get to where you want to be, if you only can spend a limited amount of time at what I take to be the very to extremely fast tracks in your area. They are far too fast to learn the sensations that you need to understand, anticipate and react quickly to without taking on way too much risk. Certainly take advantage of instructors every chance you get, but as others have said in other threads, you need to consider augmenting your education elsewhere. Get to a three day intensive school and/or you need to find a way to autocross. If you can't do either of those things, hell even if you can, then if you have any modern karting tracks around of the 40-50 MPH variety than spend time doing that.

The data you've presented screams to me that the biggest challenge you face is understanding the limits of adhesion, going past them comfortably and recovering. Car control has to be your first priority; you can never be fast nor safe without it. Developing CC means making mistakes. Making mistakes in an AX or a kart is a key part of the development program for those of us with limited means who cant afford the equivalent screwups on track. Succumbing to the temptation to push beyond your own capabilities because you intuit from those more experienced than you that your car can do far more at a track like MAM, seems to me to be a recipe for much sorrow.

In my case, at least 90% of what I know about track driving comes straight from AXing. Reading lines, reading road camber, looking and being ahead of the car, setup and most importantly car control. The fact of the matter, and I hate to admit it, is that I'm really a pretty crappy driver. But thanks to having become a competent autocrosser and having armed myself with enough skill in CC and analysis, I've so far managed to keep myself from having to buy any armco. Having that safety net has enabled me to stare my mistakes, some of them quite large, straight in the face and learn from, rather than cry over, them. Find a way to do AX or its moral equivalent. I like you, I want you safe. The logger has told you what you need to go do. Please, please, please, forget about your lap and segment times for the moment and focus instead on developing the base skill set you need to carry with you. The speed will come, trust me.

[billy]

I agree with you, everything you said. It is unfortunate that the two big tracks here are high speed tracks. But, like you said, we have MAM and blackhawk also. We already do karting but not enough as it's a 90 minute drive to get there and back.
I keep asking for a local car control clinic type thing but no joy so far so I may end up just doing a skippy or similar this winter. In the meanwhile, I'll just pick the corners I'm willing to push harder in because with no car there is no improving...

[Sterling Doc]

Billy - very interesting information you've presented here, and thoughtful responses. One of the things I'd be interested to see is where Mark gained time from Sat. to Sunday - it could be instructive as to how an experienced driver with great CC skills pushes the envelope.

Also as a bit of an FYI, I have since found my car was very out of alingement after my OTE Sat evening. I knew the steering wheel was slightly off, but not how bad the alignment was. My camber plate had slipped on the right, and 3/4 wheels were out of alingment, leaving me with about 1/2" toe in among other issues. Once I corrected that, I was nearly 2 sec per lap faster at Autobahn than my warm-up laps - which were done with the tweaked alingnment. This explains (in part) why I had nothing for Mark Sunday, despite having newer, presumably stickier tires then when we ran nose-to-tail Sat. It was fun in any case, but not as fun as running the nose-to tail Saturday (sorry I let you down, Mark).

Spending a lot of time behind Mark, I can say he does use all of the track, most all of the time (including the rumble stripes on track out at 5).

Some of the corners were Mark appears to not be using all of the track may be d/t HP limitations of our cars. If we can't develop the speed to need to corner at max G's through the theoretically optimal line, then sometimes just taking the shorter route is faster - yet another variable to consider.

I'll be back to R.A. next weekend with NASA - and hopefully will be able to make some good use of what I've learned here!

[mrepka]

Doc -

Glad you found the problem, I knew there had to be some logic to Sunday's time differentials. Either way it was a good time, and I look forward to running with you again :cheers: